OenarLod
Joined: Jan 26, 2011
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 Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 08:31 |
 
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| the_Sage wrote: | | Being able to 'lock' funds for the duration of a tourney season to keep them from contributing to TW would be helpful. |
This one. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 15:52 |
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Alright, thank you to everyone for the input thusfar. I figured now would be a good point to respond to some of the ideas, and my viewpoints going forward.
I'm trying to touch on every suggestion, so this is going to be a very long post. Lots of data here, so my apologies ahead of time for the wallspam.
1) Adjusting TV/TW bands
So far, I like this idea the best. The most popular ranges seem to be the 1750 band, with 1250 getting the least amount of support, so I'm not at all opposed to the idea of modifying things to bolster some of the ranks. What bands would be the best ranges, I'm not sure of yet.
I still think 1750 is a key range for competition, as it seems to be a fairly stable area for established teams. The discussion would be more aimed at how to handle the other ranges outside of that.
2) Modifying prizes
Currently, the prize is an MVP. Yay.
I think this is definitely something we can focus on increasing to raise the interest a little bit.
3) Adding B to the mix
I truly hate this suggestion, and wish people would stop suggesting it(or starting every conversation with it, Synn). But, in all fairness, it's due to my own bias towards the division. With that in mind, I'm not opposed to it, but it would be low on the list of changes. I'm concerned about what would happen if the two environments would combine, even in a minor tournament. I feel like if the two were to combine in this ecosystem, the tournament would quickly turn into a B tournament, and nothing more.
4) Reminders to previous participants
Unfortunately, without a lot of paperwork, this isn't really plausible. The tournament workflow is fairly involved as is, and adding another level of off-site documentation would make the process even more frustrating.
Thankfully, this is what the blog posts are for; to serve as a reminder of what's coming up for the week, and to get applications in if you're interested.
5) Creating a group for Smack coaches for notification
I'm not sure this would be beneficial, except for the coaches involved in the group. It would limit the pool of coaches, and add another level of necessary advertisement, just to get new coaches into the pool for notification. Sure it would be great for the pool of coaches that are frequent members, but for the most part the regulars are already applying each week either without notification, or with blog posts as a reminder. I don't think this helps to address increasing the regular pool of coaches without adding a second layer of consistent advertisements that are already ongoing.
6) A publicity officer
The upside to having a publicity officer for major tournaments is due to the volume of coaches participating, and the length of the tournaments, it helps to keep the excitement going. Smacks, though, have such a short length, a quick turnaround, and little continuity from one bracket to the next, it doesn't seem like this would help.
In major qualifiers, at least you can make correlations between brackets, that add to the tournament cohesiveness. For Smacks, there is no continuity from one bracket to the next, as the individual brackets never crossover to each other. There's no qualifier window, it's a simple 8-man tournament. I feel like a publicity officer would be doing nothing but recapping matches, which can be done easily by reading match reports(if people would actually submit them on a more regular basis).
7) End of Season Winner's Championship
I'm actually kind of intrigued about this. A sort of "major minor" tournament. Possibly once a quarter, one big brawl for every winner of a smack for that cycle. I like this idea.
8) Freezing treasury
There's two problems with this. The first is a button that allows this functionality. Unfortunately, that's something that would require backend configurations, which involves Christer needing to make site changes. While this is not entirely out of the realm of possibilities, it's not under my control, and would have to be brought up to him directly, and I'm not keen on going down the road of involving Christer unless absolutely necessary.
The second is the possibility of a poor man's method, which involves the honor system. Frankly, I don't trust coaches to play on the honor system. With as much skating the line of good sportsmanship that happens here, it would only be a matter of time before we come across an issue of someone not playing by the honor system, and I'd have to step in. Yes, we could put up a "no tolerance" policy, but as much as I relish punishing people, I actually prefer intervening in matches as little as possible. I'd rather have a match determined by an actual game outcome than have to make an administrative decision on it.
9) Split time zone tournaments
The end goal is to boost the population of tournaments, not lessen them. I feel like isolating tournament brackets to specific time zones would only complicate the problem, and fracture the tournament even more than it already is.
10) Limiting acceptance based on coach request
While there is no site functionality(other than a PM) to facilitate this, I'm not opposed to a coach PM'ing me to say "I would only like to be in X amount of brackets". I try to work with any coach who notifies me ahead of time of any request. Be aware, though, mistakes do happen.
11) Publicly known tournament dates
Yeah. About that. Once upon a time, we had a calendar. The tournament staff was supposed to have someone joining us with the specific job of keeping the calendar up to date. I'm not sure what happened with this, but I'll look into it.
12) Team announcements for high profile teams
This is something that I think can more easily be handled by the community at large. There are quite a few high profile teams that get public announcements for their major matches. I don't see why coaches can't have the initiative to do the same for all other official tournaments, including Smacks.
13) Trophy imagery
Again, another community driven idea, mainly because I'm not an artist. If someone has imagery they wish to use for Smacks, I see no problem with it, and if any coach has artwork they won't to submit for a more official group trophy, I'll gladly look over anything.
14) CR based brackets
This would require either backend changes to how applications are submitted, or a lot of added workload to the tournament organization to facilitate. Additionally, it would fracture the population even further. While I like the thought of a CR based tournament, to help match coaches of similar skill-levels, Smacks are not the realm for it. Having one tournament with different methods of entry would cause too many headaches to be worth the effort.
15) Moving teams to following weeks if denied
Won't happen. The entire reason for purging the application pool each week is to make sure coaches stay on top of their matches. We already have issues with coaches forgetting that they applied even days after their application. That would only get worse if you started adding weeks into the mix. Also, as koadah already touched upon, timing is key for a lot of coaches, and his observations are spot on.
16) Lengthening deadlines
There isn't really a major problem with matches not being played. Yes we have some unplayed matches, but I don't think it's such an issue that extending deadlines is going to benefit in any ways. Additionally, Smacks are intended to be quick tournaments, and lengthening the timeframes is counterproductive to that goal.
There are some good suggestions here, and I'm open for even more if people have them. With that in mind, the tournament staff is also in discussions on what we can do to increase the population, so I'm hoping for good things to come of this.
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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BooAhl
Joined: Sep 02, 2004
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 16:16 |
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I don't get 10.
Well written Shadow! |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 16:17 |
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With respect to #9 and #16, I understand and I think you make good points regarding them. However, part of the reason those games are all getting played is because people like me are not entering - because we don't think we can get the games played. If the structure (however it may be change, and I grant you there is not a great solution here or I'd be pushing it harder) made it easier for folks in timezones 5+ hours apart to play games, then you'd see more entries from me and people like me.
Alternatively, I could start entering now, send PMs right after the draw and then if neither of us budge about times there will start being some unplayed games. 
Regarding #2 (Prizes!), what about a kind of lottery prize with a range of options. Something like 1/3 chance of each of: bonus MVP, 50K cash, random player gets random mutation for 20K.
Then a few people are occasionally going to get quite a nice perk, and people might enter more for the chance at that. More creative ideas for prizes could be added too, I'm just throwing out the idea.
EDIT: Another upside of giving away the occasional mutation is that I expect it would increase the number entries from "interesting" teams. Just about any mutation would be a fun addition to a fling... |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 16:27 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | Alternatively, I could start entering now, send PMs right after the draw and then if neither of us budge about times there will start being some unplayed games. |
Well, see, that's an entirely different problem. We have people in the same time zones who already do this
Joining tournaments requires a little bit of flexibility. There are no other official tournaments that have time zone specific entries, and people still find ways to get their matches played. In the several years I've been doing tournaments, the amount of people who just can't find a window is fairly insignificant. Not to say there are none at all, but I can't see it being a large enough problem to accommodate the few coaches that could benefit from it, while subsequently harming work towards increasing the population at the same time.
| happygrue wrote: | | Regarding #2 (Prizes!), what about a kind of lottery prize with a range of options. Something like 1/3 chance of each of: bonus MVP, 50K cash, random player gets random mutation for 20K. |
Prizes that are typically "reserved" for majors are not going to happen in Smacks. You won't see Smack winners receiving mutations, one-off positionals, etc etc. Those sort of prizes are fairly impacting, and should be reserved for major winners, to maintain their uniqueness and rarity within the community.
As far as a random prize deal, it's an interesting proposition. A change in prizes is going to require Christer in the first place, so if I go down that road, I'm not opposed to just finding out how much work it would entail.
Possibly.
--j |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 16:36 |
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Yeah, that makes sense. At the same time - I join leagues in my timezone *because* there are no timezone specific tournaments. I'm not saying that creating such things is going to help per say, I just wanted to clarify why I brought it up at all. If there were timezone specific smacks *I* would drop some leagues and start entering them regularly. Since you asked for ways to improve numbers, it's a thought. I get why it's a problem though - as I said, there isn't an awesome option for working with a global community. Thinking about extending the deadline is another option (one of the reasons I do WIL is because of the longer deadline), but has it's own problems too. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 17:10 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | All the stuff in bold. |
1) Adjusting TV/TW bands
1250, 1750, unlimited?
5) Creating a group for Smack coaches for notification
This isn't a great means of publicity (it's a retention method, and an okay one at best), but it does make 8 (freezing Treasury) feasible via the "poor man's method" and absolutely no "honor system" required (PM says Jackass gotta keep 510k in Treasury, opposing coach can check).
5) Creating a group for Smack coaches for notification
6) A publicity officer
7) End of Season Winner's Championship
11) Publicly known tournament dates
12) Team announcements for high profile teams
13) Trophy imagery
14) CR based brackets
These are a package deal. 11-14 would be part of 6's responsibility, including other publicity duties that free time up to manage 5 (won't take long), and to give 7 some real meaning. The publicity officer can even be responsible for Smack PMs, though I'd think each Smack or at least each week should be its own thread.
8) Freezing treasury
An alternative is to cap TV, rather than TW, and to include a rule that says you can't spend petty cash in excess of the cap. This would be a rule change in that you'd have the ability to replace losses over the tournament, or to spend petty cash all the time, but you couldn't drop a million in the final, say. |
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Last edited by JackassRampant on %b %16, %2013 - %17:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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Oct 16, 2013 - 17:11 |
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To make SMACKs more popular, they need a better [read: automatic, interactive] way of kicking off.
There should be a SMACK page listing the brackets and the number of currently applied teams. When you apply a team, that team becomes 'scheduled' against an unknown team (so you can't play and mess up the brackets) until either the SMACK starts or is cancelled. When 8 teams are there, the SMACK starts and the 1st round deadline is a week from the next Wednesday. Teams that have been waiting 7 days should get removed (a daily script).
Christer could implement that in his sleep if he wanted to, it's not hard.
In terms of prizes, the extra MVP is a bit weak. Gold would be better.
I don't like the treasury locking suggestion. You want to build a vast horde of treasury, that's up to you. Perhaps TW could be tweaked though (e.g. TV + treasury/2). |
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Last edited by Chainsaw on %b %16, %2013 - %19:%Oct; edited 2 times in total |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 17:13 |
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I'd rather have the MVP than the gold... if I didn't have to ditch half a million gold for the right to play in Smacks.
Is both an option? Or either? |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 17:25 |
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| Chainsaw wrote: | | Christer could implement that in his sleep if he wanted to, it's not hard. |
I'm not going to get into this argument with you, because it's futile, but I will say that you've made this comment before, and what you think is "not hard" and what is reality are two different things. Christer himself has already stated as much in the past.
All of which is irrelevant, when I've expressed that changes that require any significant level of backend changes by Christer, are not on the table.
The goal of this project is to find ways to bolster the Smack tournament population. One of my personal requirements is to do this without requiring Christer intervention. Some things(tournament prizes) will, but I believe they should be very minor things, which is why I have no issues with them. Others(banking system) will require considerably more work, which I am not going to breach with Christer when there are other methods that are more plausible.
--j |
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| origami wrote: | | There is no god but Nuffle, and Shadow is his prophet. |
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SpacemanJames
Joined: Nov 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 17:40 |
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2d6 prize table? with pro's and cons? I love a bit randomness, 12 = lineman skilled to 6 spps, 2= something bad like stolen cash or a player gets an MNG celebrating too much....
that sort of thing, you can do 3 to 11.  |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 17:48 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: | | what you think is "not hard" and what is reality are two different things |
As somebody who studied CS at uni and has been programming professionally for over a decade, I can say I know with reasonable accuracy what is hard and what is not.
It is not a question whether it is hard or not, however. And I'm not going to dispute that. It is a question of whether it is worthwhile and/or has significant benefits. There is a laundry list of desired changes across the board and issues to fix and Christer has limited time and I acknowledge he shouldn't be reacting to every whim.
I'm merely throwing an idea into the mix. If it's interesting enough to be followed up, great. If not, great also.
I think you will struggle to increase popularity of SMACKs without making a change that requires some intervention by Christer. The current weekly-draw format is as tedious for the entrants as it is for you, I'm sure. When you apply 4 teams 3 weeks on the trot and nothing kicks off, it's easy to stop applying. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 17:49 |
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5) Creating a group for Smack coaches for notification
The post takes very little extra effort. You can use the blog post pretty much unchanged for PM & forum.
The group is likely to be more than just the coaches that actually play regualarly. People tend to stay in even when they do not play often.
A bit of banter in PM/Forum threads is often what encourages people to jump in when they haven't played for a while.
The PM thread can direct people to a forum post which advertises again whenever people respond. What it really needs is more banter & bragging.
6) A publicity officer
That doesn't actually need to be official. Anyone can do it if they have the time. Ideally coaches would post their own reports on the forum. That helps create interest and drives people towards the tournament page. Otherwise people won't see the match report. |
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SpacemanJames
Joined: Nov 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Oct 16, 2013 - 18:01 |
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| shadow46x2 wrote: |
The goal of this project is to find ways to bolster the Smack tournament population. One of my personal requirements is to do this without requiring Christer intervention. Some things(tournament prizes) will, but I believe they should be very minor things, which is why I have no issues with them. Others(banking system) will require considerably more work, which I am not going to breach with Christer when there are other methods that are more plausible.
--j |
Think that rules the random 2d6 prize table out? |
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Cavetroll
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
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Oct 16, 2013 - 18:26 |
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I just want to say a very sincere thank you to shadow46x2 for starting this discussion and being willing to improve the SMACKs. I very much appreciate the work you are doing here.
I want to ask a question about one of the issues I brought up that you didn't address directly in your response (and Chainsaw seconded without realizing it) - Team Weight. Shadow, I know you said freezing treasury and/or coding changes to the bank are not on the table right now because they involve significant work by Christer. Fair enough. I simply want to know if changing the TW could be done easily, and more importantly, do you think it would make a positive difference?
Something I didn't think about until today is that any changes to TW would affect ALL tournaments, not just SMACKs. So maybe it's something that would involve the buy in of all official tournament admins (Purple Chest especially). But I still think it is an idea worth considering as an alternative to freezing funds. |
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