Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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 Posted:
Dec 25, 2013 - 12:54 |
 
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(We clearly need a team based on cockroach fluff, to go along with rats and zombies...)
With holiday dinner pulling a Scrooge on me, time to bore myself back to sleep with some mathemagicals...
| C3I2 wrote: | | And that is probably why everyone and his granny uses zombies, they get them for free all the time. |
Possibly a factor, but at only 40k for a new one, a "free" zombie is usually going to be more fluff than strategic. The most likely exception is during the game they arrive, and then only if they arrive early enough and are needed to keep 11 on the pitch (or a more valued player off the defensive LoS, or as a sacrificial fouler/marker, etc. etc.).
Point is - it's only 40k for your choice.
| Overhamsteren wrote: | | +MA is better than the increased armour. The math says skeletons and zombies have the same chance to stay on the pitch, and that's what matters the most, I believe +MA on the entire team will more than make up for a few extra stuns through a game. |
K, here's the math I was too sleepy to do yesterday...
o Zombie: AV 8Armour breaks ~28%.
Of those, 58% are Stuns, and ~42% are KO or worse.
So, whenever knocked down, > 16% are Stuns, and < 12% are off the pitch (.28 x .42).
Note that < 5% total are Cas of some sort.
o Skeleton: AV 7, Thick SkullArmour breaks ~42%.
Of those, 72% are Stuns, and ~28% are KO or worse.
So, whenever knocked down, ~30% are Stuns, and an identical < 12% are off the pitch (.42 x .28).
However, > 7%, or 50% more, will be a Cas of some sort. So the diff is that while they both go off the pitch the same, Skels are almost twice as likely to be Stunned and ~50% more likely to be Casualties than their AV 8 cousins.
And that means that for any position that MA 5 is NOT a key factor and/or longevity may be (or if any Stun is a "bad thing"), Zombies have the edge.
(Otoh, if you roll a non-double "10", then you could have a MA 5, AV 8, Thick Skull skel, OR just a MA 5, AV 8 Zed... hmmmm...)
So...
For me and my projected 15-player* team, I'm thinking a 50/50 mix, 7 & 7, with the 15th player dependent on how the +stats fall. Aim for 3 Wrestle/Fend zeds for the defensive LoS, 3 Blackle for the offensive (and defensive fill), plus another w/ Block/Dauntless, and the other 7 Skel "positionals" (and their backups) - ballhandler(s), ballhawk(s), sweepers, one Frenzyer(!), etc etc. (Relying purely on Regen, I'll pro'ly never actually get there, but that's what I'll "aim" for...) ;)
(* Note - For any new coach thinking about shouldering this sort of personal challenge themself, I would not recommend 15 players if you were to take this in to any truly competitive environment (such as Ranked, etc.) - 15 is almost certainly more than you need/want. This team mix is for (very!) friendly League play, and is intentionally and specifically anti-min/maxed.
Both "successful" all-zombie teams (linked in a prev post, both ~.500 win %) carry only 13-14 players total.) |
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Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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Overhamsteren
Joined: May 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2013 - 15:20 |
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| Smeat wrote: | | Skels are almost twice as likely to be Stunned and ~50% more likely to be Casualties than their AV 8 cousins. |
Lies, damn lies, and statistics! 
You forget to mention that zombies are more likely than skeletons to be KOed.
Given that they leave the pitch at the same rate it seems better to compare the armour break percentage. 28 vs 42, so skeletons are 50% more likely to get broken which is still significant of course but a lot better than 100%.
Also 50% greater chance to get cas'ed sounds harsh, an under 3%-points difference though sounds rather trivial, and that's even before regen right?
Would be interested in seeing how mighty blow and piling on affect the numbers though.  |
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Like a Tiger Defying the Laws of Gravity
Thanks to the BBRC for all the great work you did. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Dec 25, 2013 - 15:35 |
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Please note, that regeneration is actually more valuable on skeleton then on a zombie.
(I would judge them by % staying on the pitch, not interested whether they are BH, KO, or perm. KO back is about the same as regen roll, don't expect many drives with this team if run properly, so KO comeback rolls will be few.) |
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Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2013 - 16:50 |
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Zeds? |
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"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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| Posted:
Dec 25, 2013 - 18:00 |
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Never tried the new TS skellies.
But playing av7 with undead is just something that wouldnt fly with me.
Undead need zombies, zombie is one of the best pieces overall, no numbers needed.  |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Dec 25, 2013 - 18:42 |
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Well, the undead roster is speed deficient. Yes, there are quicker players, but they are vulnerable if isolated. (I am now looking at the ghouls.) So actually I consider experimenting with an undead roster where I switch zombies for skellies. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Dec 25, 2013 - 20:49 |
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Funny that it still seems to apply, that you rather take zombies on undead. Since robotcoyote is, indeed, a solid undead superstar with about 500 games played.
But im sure a good undead coach can do good with either of them, TS makes them a lot more worthwhile and fun to play, im sure.
Now my comment was only meant in good fun obviously.
On an all lino undead team, of course, the +ma of some skellies should make the team a lot more competitive and, more important, more fun and whee bit less dull to play.
Im sure heres better advice than i could give on a good mix (i probably would never field up more than 4 skellies at once though).
On a sidenote the real reason for this teambuild is, as should be revealed now, obviously a cheap trick to distract from the fact we 145ers would be whoopin' your ass even with woodies! Nice attempt at diversionary tactics there chap!
In any case i like seeing another undead team in the league and looking forward on what the team name will be and playing them of course!
Its also a good idea since it adds some variation to gobbos in that environment,it will make the next 145er Rookie/ Open League season even more exciting! |
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akaRenton
Joined: Apr 15, 2008
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Dec 26, 2013 - 00:30 |
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In 145 where you aren't going to see much claw, but are likely to see MB I'd say go mostly zombie. You're an experienced coach, so should find that the 1 less movement is not as painful as you'd think.
If you aren't sold on the all zombie or all skelly line up, maybe 10 zombie to 4 skelly is the way to go. I've only played as an all zombie coach, but with my past undead teams with normal rosters I've found that at lower TV you'll still meet a fair bit of Mighty Block but not as much Claw.
Zombies may be slow but av8 stays on the pitch more reliably (some matches my zombies barely take more than the occasional stun, and regen is great for giving you back players for the next drive). If you're decent with positioning the higher av is better than that 1 extra movement.
Oh and Guard and MB on doubles, it'll help a lot  |
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notbobby125
Joined: Feb 28, 2013
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Jan 03, 2014 - 08:27 |
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I keep three zombies for my defensive line and one skeleton with wrestle and strip ball for ball blitzing. I am considering replacing him with a ghoul for that job, but they are so fragile. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Jan 04, 2014 - 00:18 |
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(On a standard Undead roster, Zeds on the defensive LoS is the obvious choice, and a skel for (backup?) defensive sweeper is another popular one. This thread isn't about that, but it shares the same reasoning.)
I went with 50/50 (7 & 7) to start, but with the holidaze I haven't had time to play more than 2 games, so don't have a personal feel as to whether that's the right mix (for me) or not.
And, admittedly, I lost both games - Ag 2 can be quite unreliable (and usually picks the worst of times to be so!) Rain is no friend of Ag 2, and failing something like 5 out of 7 pickup attempts when receiving is a deep hole to shamble your way out of. Sure Hands is def locked at the top of the "1st team skill" list. 
But I like what I see so far - and am enjoying the team FAR more than I did Gobbos in the same League.
| Overhamsteren wrote: | | Would be interested in seeing how mighty blow and piling on affect the numbers though. |
So would I!
<...looks afround for any volunteers...>
| Nightbird wrote: |
Zeds? |
Ummm... well, yeah, "zeds". I think I actually got that from a diff game a long time ago*, but "zed" is the (non-US) name for the letter "z", so it's just another generic bit of slang.
(* http://wiki.urbandead.com/index.php/Main_Page )
| albinv wrote: | | On a sidenote the real reason for this teambuild is, as should be revealed now, obviously a cheap trick to distract from the fact we 145ers would be whoopin' your ass even with woodies! Nice attempt at diversionary tactics there chap! |
I didn't like the way my gobbos fell into the playoffs even tho' I gave away some games by coaching my opponent, and I didn't like the way they won individual games by mangling newbies' teams with Trolls and SW's, and/or just ignored decent defenses by just dodging thru or leaping over them. For me, 145 is about getting better, about preparing to enter the broader community, and beating up on Stunty and worrying about threats that will be rarely seen in Box, Ranked or (most) Leagues is not the way.
And, meanwhile on my side of the ball, I was getting better at... goblins, which is not exactly my own goal.
But, albinv, if you want to go head to head without a "diversion", just pick a Ranked team and we can schedule something. No problem, no problem at all.  |
_________________
Let's go A.P.E.!
(...and what exactly do you think they do with all those dead players?...) |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Jan 06, 2014 - 15:14 |
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I like to have a couple skeles to put dp on since they can run a bit further to stick in a boot.
Otherwise, zombods make much better meat shields from what I've seen.
Granted, if you're going all of one (and not mixing) then I'd probably lean towards skeles because in that case MA5 is far more valuable. If you're mixing then what jimmy said makes sense. |
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DukeTyrion
Joined: Feb 18, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 06, 2014 - 16:46 |
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I tried an Undead team with all skeletons instead of zombies and found them to be more than viable.
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=648134
They have extra movement and the thick skull is the only skill that reduces the chances of a player (who fails his armour roll) leaving the pitch, so they were exceptionally good against claw/MB teams. |
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