mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| WhatBall wrote: | | mister__joshua wrote: | I like the changes, and the fact they complement each other well. I think the CFlings getting nerfs with the small buff thrown in is nice too. These are the team I've used the most (still not a lot mind, for shame!) and even though they are being reduced in power I couldn't disagree with anything said.
I'm not sure the Eshin changes go far enough to make them more playable or competitive/fun. Again, I don't have a lot of experience with them but as I sit and look at the roster I can't really see where their strengths are. They're meant to be fast but as a team are considerably slower than Skinks, the other fast team. Maybe give the Adepts Ma7 too and see how it goes? The assassin also seems overcosted/underpowered. I'd look at something like this:
Assassin - AV7, Ma8, +Shadowing, -Claw
NRs - AV7
Adepts - Ma7
I will say again that I'm not an experienced Eshin player so this is all just theory.  |
The Eshin do need a little something else, but I am not sure what yet. I can tell you the Assassin does not want to have shadowing. You want to keep it as safe as possible.
Keep in mind these changes are two-fold:
1. To try and bring the teams into a more level playing field to maximize the races being played, and
2. to try and make the teams more fun and unique. |
You're probably right, I was just trying have it in-keeping with the reset of the team, and thought Movement 8 Shadowing would be a pain. Something like the old Poisoned Dagger would be ace but that's not doable. Maybe adding the Ag4 Flings though opens up what is allowable for high Ag in Leeg? When I think assassin I think of the Deathmaster Snitch model whirling around.
How about: 9247 Dodge, Stab, Multi-block, Extra Arms, 2-Heads.
Represents his multi-dexterity while allowing him to stab many people at once if in the right situation. There is only one of him, so making him good shouldn't be a problem. |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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 Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 15:31 |
 
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I think of the Eshin as a Pro Elf version of stunties, kinda...die easy but one of the best offenses.
Cost for the players are all fine.
I am not sure about giving them more armour since they are weeeee lil' folk. Maybe just Thick Skull on the Stalkers?
As far as the Assasin, the team would get off to a faster start if he had Passing as a regular roll. To tie in with this, I would like to see the Night Runner also start with Catch. This will help to get the team off its feet, reduce costs and with them keeping the 6av, they are still going to die off quick but the team will be able to recover a little quicker without starting to become a team that was made into a top team because it used to be 'unpopular' |
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Badoek
Joined: May 17, 2009
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 15:44 |
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Something too extreme but sounds like fun to me: ball & chain for squigs... Make that their only nega-trait. Herding is hard!
CFlings: can't comment really, they do seem dangerous at higher TV.
Eshin: pretty please! |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 15:52 |
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I think just giving all the squigs access to Agility on a normal roll will put then in check quite a bit.
Rationale: 'Herding' seems more like an Agility skill, where the 'strength' comes from the Squig itself. Being able to get the Squig to do the skills in Strength would require a larger degree of 'herding' and thus be justified as a doubles roll to get that skill.
I like the team design and the way the players 'mesh' |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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Feb 19, 2014 - 16:04 |
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The C'Flings....lol
To me, they represent a lot of the coaches that play regularly in Blackbox (Kill All Menz!)
I don't see an issue with their roster at all or even them being too powerful. They are so 'bloody' slow.
Tents on the Spawn is annoying to say the least but it isn't like a knife to the gut cant solve that issue. I think it is more of a tactical disadvantage here.
Just like CPOMB teams in R or B, this team can go the two heads and full of gimmicks but the good old grind em and mash em strategy has to be pegged to a few races if only for fluff reasons of the game itself. |
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m0gw41
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 16:48 |
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I think loner on the squigs would make a pretty big difference: means they are much more likely to remove their own herders and less likely to be used for key plays meaning the av7 hoppers put themselves in the dangerzone a bit more, also means the nastier block/cpomb squigs are less likely to bother rerolling pushes. I would support this change and feel it could be enough.
On a related note from a fluff point of view could the hoppers have bonehead and keep pro? They are essentially a really stupid squig with a pro herder always looking after them (they must be a particularly good herder to be able to ride one). The bonehead should eat up rerolls more quickly, if we feel that squig teams are rerolling their way to a more reliable team.
In terms of cflings: coming off the back of a total trashing at the hands of some nasty Skyre slaves I am not sure how much of a nerf they need. I guess the main problems is that they are pretty bashy at low TV but I don't feel they are as much relatively at higher TV especailly vs teams with multiple blockle/mighty blow players. In general they seem very much a trash or be trashed team in terms of casualties.
For the Spawn I would be really against switching wild animal for another negatrait. I like the variety of BGs in stunty, it poses a different challenge dealing with WA to BH or RS. The problems of tents/wild animal are not that great if the opponent positions correctly. Yes when they are in contact WA is the preferable skill but when out of contact that is not the case. Giving them BH or RS makes it easier for them to get tents on players in the first place (as you often want to use your blitz with another player) but harder to maintain them (unless the player can restrain himself from blocking). Wild animal should also make a player less likely to take piling on with their claw/mb as it is harder to get up after, for the same reason it makes them more prone to getting put out the game by bombs (a wild animal on the floor can be quite frustrating).
I feel it is the saws at low TV that cause the most havoc so gimping them a bit will help there. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 16:58 |
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| Badoek wrote: | | Something too extreme but sounds like fun to me: ball & chain for squigs... |
B&Cs Cannot have Leap (by rule), so no can do unless they stop "hopping".
If you want wacky: Go back to an old idea of Synn's: Herders get TTM and Squigs get Right Stuff! (When you gig 'em hard enough, Oh how they jump!) |
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Duder
Joined: Mar 13, 2012
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 17:17 |
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Here is a link to my stunty racial records for my point of view on team strength.
Squigs are a very powerful team. Their negatraits are managable enough for them to be the runaway top bashers. I tend to think the team should fall into a chaotic challenging team type rather than top performer. I like the proposed changes.
Chaos Flings - I have ok records with them, but my opponents have dismal results with chaos flings. I don't view them as overpowered. I think changing to bone head or really stupid would not really be a nerf. It opens up Throw Team Mate to be more than a last ditch "why not give it a try". Also wild animal is a hard trait for them because they are a team full of blitzers where only one guy can get the blitz. I think Bonehead would be a boost to the team, Really Stupid is also hard to manage so maybe about on par to wild animal. I think any these are viable options. I like the -MA for saw for good fluff but then again don't see the team needing a nerf. Increasing the lino cost I am against, too much of a nerf. Mutation access is nice but how long do these slow crunchy guys keep their skills without also having to keep perms. Head Carver should have a knife. Then his name makes sense, he's special out of the box, overall good addition.
Eshin - I have had good results, but I have had a 5 AG assassin for most of their games, which opens up a pretty awesome passing game. My opponents have not done well with Eshin. I have played against Eshin less than any other race (other than pro flings), so I would rather see them overpowered than sitting on the shelves. I like the proposed changes and don't think the changes will over power them. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Feb 19, 2014 - 17:31 |
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Eshin were overpowered once... (although they were always dull) |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 19, 2014 - 18:05 |
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My tuppence:
Chaos Flings
| Sigmar1 wrote: |
Cflings: I don't play them but I play against them A LOT. My main complaint vs. them is they're too damn many. On the whole though I don't find them overly concerning other than the ease at which the Spawn become kill-stack Legends. |
Yeah I echo this totally.
I think the Spawn however could do with a total stats/skill redesign. Our Spawn is a modified Minotaur, which shouldn't be the case.
Remember a BoN can be 2 things. Either a kind of slug type steed or an upgraded Spawn of Chaos. Looking at the figures, it's obvious that our one is an upgraded Spawn of Chaos. So, with that in mind, the Fling Spawn could (and probably should) be a poor mans Beast of Nurgle.
With that in mind, RS instead of WA is a must in my opinion. It could have some different skills to a BoN, but should be thought of as inferior.
If these changes were made, it leaves room in the league for some frenzy/WA big guys. This then leaves room for rosters that would include a minotaur or rat ogre.
All this would be beneficial in my opinion.
*To creativity
*To diversity
*To confirm to racial stereotype
As for the other changes; would the head carver get an SW roll? If so, I don't think the 'G' access player should have that.
The +5k sounds a bit of overkill (if you tone down the Spawn), but you never know unless you try.
Clan Eshin
Need more than a minor revamp in my opinion, and a few name changes (somewhere I came up with some good ones (in my opinion)).
Adepts for linos really doesn't work for me. Better suited giving that name to the stalker, and getting a new lino name. The positionals as they are okish (the stalker's much improved thanks to you), but they need an extra one. Something like thinking up another name for 'gutter pipe' adding runner to it, and making it a bit speedy?
Squig Herders
Like everyone else, this ones the big problem. The problem being how to tone them down, without losing their character.
I'm not sure about 3 neg traits (not including no hands), it's a dangerous path, however if it's the formula that works, that's the way to go as you/we will have to think outside of the box on this one.
I think WA would work well, but RS replicates the 'herding' part perfectly, and I'd be loathed to lose that, which is a pity.
Firstly, the stats on the Squig Hoppers and Squigs don't really tie up. Why does a Hopper have 1 extra movement, with a goblin on his back? Pro and -1av don't really tie up either.
On top of this, 70k seems a bit cheap. You could up the price so that being maxed out with Squigs isn't a dead cert.
My initial thoughts (I know I've thought about this before, but I can't really remember what I thought on them) on changes would some or all of the following:
Squig Herders
drop the pro
bring the MA into line with squigs, either squigs get +1 or Herders lose -1
bring the AV into line with Squigs, either squigs lose -1 or Herders gain +1
maybe give the herder 2 heads to bring it in line with the spider rider
Squigs
drop the ag to 3
drop the av to 7
or increase the price and add lone or increase the price and ag 3
Another possibility is to replace the MB with PO. piling on with bouncing/leaping squigs sounds very right to me and makes good use of a combo, and a broken rule mechanic in our favour. In fact this change is worth some thought to make it work...... |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 18:07 |
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| Craftnburn wrote: | | Eshin were overpowered once... (although they were always dull) |
And then came the Forrest gobbos who manage to out stab the assassins.
For another historical perspective, cflings used to have access to trolls. It was changed to only minos as a nerf so the minos and saws would have to share their blitz. Changing WA to either BH or RS would be a huge buff to coaches who know what they are doing.
__Synn |
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Azure
Joined: Jan 30, 2007
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 18:18 |
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Okay, after some thought, I have to say that I greatly disagree with these suggestions.
| WhatBall wrote: |
Squig Herders
1. The Squigs are meant to be VERY dangerous (ST4, AG4, A & S access, MB, Leap, etc.), but alos highly unreliable. Yes, they have RS & Blood Lust, but by carrying a large number of RRs, you can get around this relatively well and the feeding on your team is usually less than what you take out of the opponents teams. So what do we need? Loner! I hear the cries that 3 negatraits is too much, but I say they are wild eating machines, Loner works. More craziness all around.
Verdict: + Loner |
This is absolutely terrible idea. I have run squig herders and never fielded 4 squigs on my team...with loner - not sure I would field any at all. Squigs are what eat up the team RRs fast...putting loner on them makes them useless. Putting loner on them does not "increase the craziness" it makes them a pointless player that will soon not be included on any squig herder team. It will be a boring team with just the 2 hoppers (both probably built as killers) and a horde of linemen for fodder/shield.
Currently, you can not afford to field more than 2-3 squigs for a drive because of the bloodlust and RS - you quickly will run out of food. A good coach removes the food and isolates the squigs.
| WhatBall wrote: |
2. Pro. Not a word I would use to describe a Goblin madly trying to stay on top of a bounding Squig as they dart about the pitch. Pro on the Hoppers allows them so many liberties from an (almost) 50% recovery rate from BL, to RR’ing 3D blocks, which is a huge bonus in Stunty for killing things.
Verdict: - Pro, -10 cost |
Again I disagree. There is no general access on any player...the pro makes the hoppers an interesting risk/reward situation. Removing it makes the team less interesting.
Verdict: With the changes you propose, people will quickly discover that the only way to play the team is with 2 hoppers - both designed as killers and plenty of fodder. You remove the fun and uniqueness and push the team towards just plain min/max silliness. These are not small tweaks at all.
Suggestion: If you think Squig Herders are too good - then you make their RRs cost 60k instead of 50k. Right now, they have no access to G skills (so no block/tackle) and have up to 4 RS and 6 BL rolls per turn...that burns the RRs, but with RRs only costing 50k, it is easy to have a lot to compensate. Increase the cost of RRs seems the most logical approach because it makes the existing negative traits more challenging to overcome without destroying a position player completely.
| WhatBall wrote: |
Chaos Flings
They are hated like no other in the Leeg, because they can take apart teams at will. So what makes them so good at this?
1. Having two Spawn with (almost default skill choice) tentacles helps out a LOT. And with Wild Animal, they never lose their tackle zones, so they can indefinitely tie up 6-8 players between the two of them. Since we are moving away from the Minotaur model, Bone-head or Really Stupid would be a better option. This means they can lose TZs and may need babysitting (RS).
Verdict: - Wild Animal, + Bone-head OR Really Stupid, -10 cost |
Okay, I am going to stop here, because this is way too silly. Essentially you are saying that Spawn are too powerful, so you are going to make them better? A good coach playing CF will force the Spawn into situations where they have to make 4+ rolls. The Wild Animal is the biggest drawback to them...what you are proposing is a BUFF.
This is all about positioning. Wild Animal makes this much more difficult - playing against the Spawn, you have to be smart. I see this only as a really good buff to CFs. |
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Beerox
Joined: Feb 14, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 18:47 |
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I believe the change from WA to RS/BH is so Brownies etc have some chance to escape the tentacles. Direct your frenzy well and you can herd a large amount of ST1 players all half long. It's like fish in a barrel, and the fish can't get out. If WA triggers then its no big deal, you'll smash them next turn because they aren't going anywhere. But if really stupid triggered instead, the stunties can then scatter in all directions. I don't think it's such a bad idea. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 18:51 |
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Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.
I see your points Azure, and will think on them. |
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gamelsetlmatch
Joined: Mar 05, 2013
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| Posted:
Feb 19, 2014 - 18:58 |
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Can we just have another Stunty Major?
The last one was cool with getting points to try to make it into the actual tourney but, not that many teams actually played in it.
I think we will get an even better idea about how unbalanced, if at all, any of these teams are in tournament play instead of one off craziness.
Then, as we take into consideration these views while we watch the games, we will have a little more relevant data.
BN: I think the Skinks could use a +AV to the Raptor, thanks in advance for the BUFF!! =p |
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