Bullroarer4
Joined: Oct 22, 2012
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Apr 15, 2014 - 14:34 |
 
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So far (one game in) the addition of juggs helped my reliability. IMO, PO is unnecessary in stunty most of the time so the loss of S skills on normal doesn't seem too bad. Ive found block and tackle for offense and DT and SS for defense are king. While removing general access does nerf, it doesn't make the team less powerful than other non general access teams. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Apr 15, 2014 - 14:40 |
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Yup blkleMB is more devastating than POMB in stunty. |
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cameronhawkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
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Apr 15, 2014 - 16:14 |
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Ok–– Because of the changes, the Squig Team is now too good, because they now have no weaknesses. Before, AV7 made the hoppers vulnerable to stab and foul, and Dodging on a 3+ made that unreliable. The changes that have been made are a positive buff, and it makes them no-contest against any team that lacks Secret Weapons or comparable strength.
They have the highest ST in the leeg, and the second-highest AV, and they are arguably even more tough than Gnomes, because half their players don't have Stunty. And while stabby teams could get around the ST, now they can't. With Claw+MB+AV8, squiqs don't even fear taking BothDown against anyone without block. Literally anyone.
What I still don't understand is–– It's ok if the squigs themselves rock, but why do they need to have one of the best linemen in the leeg as well? Vampires work because Thralls suck and Vampires are great. Frankly, this seems incredibly basic, and I do not understand the reason that Herders still equal Goblins in every way after all these years of tweaking.
With the new Squigs, Bloodlust is now their only weakness. This means that one's entire path to success relies on your opponent getting unlucky. (Of course between Two Heads and Juggernaut, there are more rerolls to go around) And any Squig coach who knows what he's doing that he's will only field 2 non-Pro squigs at any one time.
And, yes–– I did just play against them. It was a complete waste of time. My team had no chance whatsoever, and it was extremely demoralizing, and I eventually gave up. But several races in my situation (skinks, pygmies, etc) would have fared similarly. But I didn't get particularly unlucky. My opponent didn't get particularly lucky. The only remarkable thing about the game was how much one race was completely inexorable against the other. My best shot at the ball was a 2D uphill or a 9+ stab roll. My opponent pointed out that "stunty games are crazy". But this game was the absolute opposite of that, and that was exactly the problem: AV8, Juggernaut, Two Heads–– these are things whose only function is to increase reliability, which is the opposite of craziness. And so there was absolutely none of the tension that makes Stunty games fun, because at no point was my opponent's game in question. When your opponent rolling BothDown/BothDown with a blockless player is something you hope DOESN'T happen, something is wrong.
Certainly some types of races will always have advantages against other types, but this is just too extreme. I have played High Elves and Amazons against Dwarves, and this had nothing on that.
Teams need to have vulnerabilities or else the game is not fun. It may be counter-intuitive to some, but vulnerabilities make a team MORE fun–– to play as or against–– which is why Ogres, Goblins, Halflings, and Vampires are the most fun races in mainline divisions–– because they are exquisitely vulnerable. Hoping someone rolls 1 on Bloodlust or 2 on a pick-up does not constitute a exploitable weakness, and makes for a very what-am-I-doing-here kind of experience. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 15, 2014 - 17:17 |
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I agree with everything you have said about Squigs, that is my feeling towards them as well. But what's wrong with High Elves vs Dwarves?
I don't think that's a bad match up for high Elves at all really. |
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cameronhawkins
Joined: Aug 19, 2011
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Apr 15, 2014 - 17:29 |
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| Garion wrote: | I agree with everything you have said about Squigs, that is my feeling towards them as well. But what's wrong with High Elves vs Dwarves?
I don't think that's a bad match up for high Elves at all really. |
Ok. I kinda agree that it's not that bad. But Harvestmouse said it was once, and I sorta took his word for it. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Apr 15, 2014 - 17:30 |
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Well it looks like hoppers may not be the sure choice for your regular blitzing anymore with the claw, mighty blow and strength access gone, and their spp hauls along with team cas caused will decrease significantly. Though on the other hand jugs and two heads will see them blitz more effectively in some circumstances and they are still more reliable than the normal squigs. Really stupid is still a factor for the squigs as well as bloodlust so they are certainly unreliable.
Do the riders still have strength and general access on doubles?
Claw did seem more suitable to the character than two heads. |
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m0gw41
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
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Apr 15, 2014 - 18:01 |
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| garyt1 wrote: |
Do the riders still have strength and general access on doubles?
Claw did seem more suitable to the character than two heads. |
Hoppers lost S access and no one on the team has had general access for a while.
I'm also not sure about the av7 to av8 buff. In fact if you look at the skill exchange although they are roughly equivalent in standard blood bowl, however in stunty they are not:
Losses =>
Claw: only useful against <10% of players.
Mighty Blow: Big loss
S access: These guys only really took PO, maybe guard and break tackle, so a bit of a loss but not huge.
Gains =>
Juggernaut: Minor Reliability Buff
Two Heads: Big Buff (dodge 3+ to 2+)
VLL: Buff (leap 4+ to 3+)
+AV: Big Buff (much more foul/stab proof)
If these guys had been the only players with Claw and S access on the team then this would have been a bigger loss but with the squigs able to do the big guy damage and provide the guard it is not a huge loss.
I think this is going in the right direction in principle but more tweeks required I reckon. |
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Cavetroll
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
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Apr 15, 2014 - 18:24 |
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There was talk about removing Pro from the Squig Hopper. Why was this idea abandoned?
I actually like the skill swaps, but why increase the Armor? What fluff justification is there for a +AV on them? With 2 heads and VLL they got more mobile, since when does mobility increase armor? |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 15, 2014 - 18:48 |
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They probs should be av8 fluff wise, however pro must go. If it could only be used to ignore the bloodlust roll it wouldn't be such a problem but rerolls on all those 3dice blocks they get is just horrible. |
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m0gw41
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
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Apr 15, 2014 - 18:51 |
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If an av7 gobbo is riding on an av8 squig whose armour do we count? I think either can fit the fluff. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Apr 15, 2014 - 19:00 |
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In wfb mounts always add +1 to save or at least they used to. In real life mounted soldiers always wore more armour if financially possible because it didn't matter if their movement was restricted. (Yes I know there are exceptions to this rule like the Mongols feigned flee and shoot tactics etc... But you get my point)
So personally I think there is enough to support the av8 thing really. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Apr 15, 2014 - 19:42 |
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I don't care for the AV8, not on fluff grounds, but on balance. It would be best if we could make Injuries separate Squig from rider, but...  |
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Cavetroll
Joined: Jan 21, 2009
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Apr 15, 2014 - 19:44 |
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I guess my point was they were less mobile when they were AV7, not that they should or should not have been AV8 all along. I'm simply commenting on the change in AV. |
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nerf indigo 2016 |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Apr 15, 2014 - 21:07 |
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| m0gw41 wrote: | | garyt1 wrote: |
Do the riders still have strength and general access on doubles?
Claw did seem more suitable to the character than two heads. |
Hoppers lost S access and no one on the team has had general access for a while.
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I am talking doubles access. General has always been doubles. Strength was previously normal. |
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m0gw41
Joined: Jun 12, 2012
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Apr 15, 2014 - 22:39 |
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| garyt1 wrote: | | I am talking doubles access. General has always been doubles. Strength was previously normal. |
Sorry man, my bad. As far as I can see from the stunty rosters every skill type can be accessed with double if they are not available with singles (except mutation of course). |
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