Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Sep 03, 2014 - 08:08 |
 
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Yeah I see no problem with the borrower. Strip ball in stunty is amazing especially with 2 ag 4 players. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 03, 2014 - 15:19 |
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The dump off part was to replicate the 'What, it wasn't me?' part of the thief. I.e. they steal something and quickly flip it off to an accomplice. NoS was just added to aid that, and for no fluff reason.
The catcher was kept as close to a 2nd ed catcher as possible, so he was given catch. Also with NoS, this would aid in throwing just as much as catching, which would have given coaches another reason to not take the punter. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Mine and Craftnburn's comments are both remarkably similar (like we're mind-melded) on the Trees, Punters and Borrowers, but coming back to the Borrowers specifically - I don't think wrestle would be the best idea but something like big hand, extra arms or Sure hands would be more useful than the DO/NoS combo and still thematically fit. Instead of picking and disposing, it would focus more on picking, stealing and running away  |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 03, 2014 - 17:23 |
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Extra arms definitely fits, and a philosophy I use and would definitely use for Stunty. However I think this would be a precedent.
This precedent being; using a skill to replicate a trait, however the said skill is something they wouldn't have/be able to do literally.
What I mean by this is that you and me look at the player, and we think of extra arms replicating being fleet of hand. However the more literal could look at it and think 'This is dumb, how could a halfling have 4 arms?'
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the idea, however it's a door of problems if we went that route. The only other time I think this has been done was with Snotlings (and that was removed for CRP). Snotlings were given 2 heads and regeneration to replicate a Snotling wasn't actually a Snotling but an area that 'contained' Snotlings. Brilliant concept IMO. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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They use their feet as hands 
But yeah, I get your point. TBH I didn't know it would be a precedent, I assumed things had been used in that way before (and thought specifically of the old snotlings without considering their removal).
Could a halfling have abnormally large hands like his feet? Would that make him better at stealing? |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 03, 2014 - 17:38 |
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I think big hands would be metaphorical too, however not as glaringly so. |
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selfy_74
Joined: Sep 03, 2010
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Sep 03, 2014 - 18:42 |
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Kalamona
Joined: Apr 21, 2005
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Sep 03, 2014 - 21:03 |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 03, 2014 - 23:06 |
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| selfy_74 wrote: | | It's been done before in stunty with gnoblar trappers. They don't have tentacles. |
Ahhhhhh yes, there we go. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Sep 04, 2014 - 02:37 |
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So are we talking about:
5 2 3 6 Dodge, Right Stuff, Strip Ball, Stunty, Sure Hands + (Something Else)
What should the "Something Else" be?
Nerves of Steel? (still somewhat useful, but was really only there for Dump Off)
Dump Off? (It seems the consensus is that this isn't really worth it)
I could see good (fluff) arguments for:
+AG (Now the team is REALLY Balling!)
Big Hand (read as Sticky Fingers)
Shadowing (perhaps limited use, and steps on pygmy schtick a bit, but fits "burglar" role)
Stab (probably a little too "thief" than "burglar")
Sneaky Git (always like to see underused skills. Would fit "burglar" fluff though)
Grab (Ok, more for the name of the skill than how it actually works... ) |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 04, 2014 - 04:19 |
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I thought Kalamona was talking about the Punter.
For the Borrower:
Sure hand = Definitely not. This will cross roles with the Punter.
AG = Again no, this to too much of a bump.
Big Hand = This is possible.
Shadowing = Limited use I think, and there are bugs with Shadowing.
Stab = No, this is for other teams.
Sneaky Git and Grab = Not for me. Only the name fits, not the skills.
Personally, I don't think we need be touching the Borrower at all.
As a 'balanced' roster, there aren't any real problems. People are enjoying it, the fluff is good, the positionals are interesting and the win/loss rate is well within the parametres.
So big changes are not needed for this roster. I do agree though that a little 'tweaking' would benefit some or 1 positional.
The biggest concern with making changes, is that one role is then done by a positional that was not intended to do it.
What I mean for example; giving the borrower sure hands, means there's even less reason to take a punter.
These are professionally trained flings. They are well drilled, and have well defined roles. This is what we want to achieve.
Punters - Ball retrievers and throwers.
Catchers - Super stars of the team that generally score.
Moot Guard - Perform a role of holding the position for the halflings as well as bashing back a bit.
Borrower - Turns the ball over on defence. |
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Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
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Sep 04, 2014 - 05:06 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | I thought Kalamona was talking about the Punter. |
Well, I don't really think Sure Hands fits with the Punter's fluff (Sure Feet maybe ) despite how useful a skill it might be.
| harvestmouse wrote: | | For the Borrower: |
I agree that of the list, Big Hand is likely the better choice to fit their role: Pop it loose, grab it and get away (Although I think +AG would fit nicely fluffwise AND make the team a lot more competitive, which I'm not sure I agree that they really are at present*).
| harvestmouse wrote: | | Personally, I don't think we need be touching the Borrower at all. |
I thought the point was that many felt the Dump Off + NoS combo was pretty much useless on the Borrower and not really very fluffy to boot. Just brainstorming about what to replace them with. Although I agree that changes should be small, not major.
*Rumblers excluded |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I think both were being discussed simultaneously
I think for the Borrower that Extra Arms would be the best option. Gives him a good chance to pick up in a tackle zone (after a strip) or catch the ball if it scatters back to him, but doesn't make him as good as the Catcher at catching. Big Hand is another good option, but I'm less of a fan of surehands. He could even keep NoS and just lose the Dump-off.
For the Punter, KoR and SH would see his usefulness increase massively but not to the point of being overpowered. I also thing it still fits thematically as a full-backs role is to retrieve a ball and kick it away. Whether he keeps HMP or loses than and has to earn it back (just so he hasn't got too much out-the-box) is something to consider. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 04, 2014 - 11:21 |
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I think the punter would be better off with extra arms of big hand or whatever. The borrower is a really good player as he is, no need for a buff there. his job is to knock the ball free, nothing more really. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Not thematically I don't think. The Punter's role would be more of a Sure Hands position. The Extra Arms is more representative of the thief's nimble fingers so wouldn't really go with the Punter.
I don't think any of these changes are necessary because the team is fun to play as it is, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved. These sort of minor changes could make the team more fun to develop over time while not greatly boosting their effectiveness, which is the right way to go.
I think the borrowers only came into the discussion because Azure pointed out that the most played Halfling teams didn't field any, which would indicate a problem even if it's not apparent at first. I agree they look good on paper. |
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