ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
|
 Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 13:29 |
 
|
Are people taking fend? And if so, is the reasoning that in the event of a CRP update, they're going to HAVE to turn it into something useful? |
_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7
(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.) |
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 16:04 |
|
I think you are completely missing my point, regarding information transfer.
I asked for confirmation whether or not the current implementation is correct.
Then I pointed out why the current implementation is bad if it is not implemented correctly.
If it is not implemented correctly, the coach who follows up is not privy to the information whether the other coach would use fend either.
I wasn't suggesting to use a different implementation just for more efficiency.
Edit: There is a reason why I posted this under rules questions. |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %22, %2014 - %16:%Apr; edited 2 times in total |
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 16:11 |
|
The chess equivalent of running out of 45 min would be a loss. |
_________________
 |
|
xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 16:15 |
|
The correct order, unsurprisingly, isn't explicitly spelled out in the rules. However, my feeling is that the client's implementation is correct. The wording of the skill description suggests that if you use Fend, they lose the choice whether to follow up. Not that you let them choose, then use/don't use Fend.
I don't think it's clear enough language to allow for a definitive answer though. |
_________________
 Nerf Ball 2014 |
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 16:33 |
|
| xnoelx wrote: |
I don't think it's clear enough language to allow for a definitive answer though. |
Then I gotta still point to the general answer on when skills are used and that is at any given time.. For instance in theory it could go like this:
A blocker blitzes a wrestler. He rolls two both down. The blocker goes: Guess I won't need block here!
The wrestler goes: Oh, then I probably won't need Wrestle!
Blocker: Hold on, since you don't use Wrestle, I'll be using Block!
Wrestler: Well, if you use Block, I'll use Wrestle!
Nobody seems to want to change his mind. The action is executed. |
|
|
the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 16:58 |
|
| Sp00keh wrote: | Or could help prevent surf
|
This. For instance, while setting up a 3 push surf, a powpush on the first doesn't prompt dodge. |
|
|
Oly1987
Joined: Oct 02, 2006
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 17:07 |
|
theres no need to speed up play let people have the choice. is around 50% the time a game of tabletop takes not good enough? |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 18:39 |
|
| Oly1987 wrote: | | theres no need to speed up play let people have the choice. is around 50% the time a game of tabletop takes not good enough? |
Actually no, it is not good enough. On the other hand I don't see the solution how to speed it up significantly (with fend or else). |
_________________
|
|
Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 19:29 |
|
The line of where popups should end and online speedy functionality begin is one we've argued over plenty in the past, primarily around the birth of the new client. Personally, I think we're further away from the correct useage of the skills (too few popups (or other mechanism) / too far away from TT) than I'd like to be in an ideal world, but I think the compromise we reached at the time to keep everyone happy-ish is probably fair enough and is working well enough. Going any further down this road would be rubbish.
As if one timer isn't bad enough, the last thing we need is more of the same. If fewer people took pants skills like Fend, the problem would go away anyway.  |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 22:03 |
|
Well, thanks Xnoelx for paying attention.  |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 22:16 |
|
Ok, I found this on page 14 of the CRP.
| Quote: | | Some skills are also used in the opponent's turn. In this case you may choose to use the skill after an opposing player carries out an Action or moves a square. If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same Action or move, then the coach whose turn is taking place must use his skill first. |
|
|
|
xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 22:18 |
|
Hmm. a) where does that bit about 'skills may be used at any time' come from? Most skills do specify when they can be used, it's only when two skills can be used after a specific action that the order is unclear.
b) even if that is true, would you prefer block/wrestle to be handled by the client like your example? If so, that would affect the use of most skills, meaning a lot more pop-ups, and a slower game. And
c) it still wouldn't clarify whether the blocker or the Wrestler gets the choice first. Likewise (to get back to the OP) with the blocker or the Fender.
And d) that quote from p14 specifies that the coach whose turn it is must use his skills first. Following up isn't a skill.
I stand by my original answer; I don't think the rules provide enough clarity to give a definitive answer, and I feel the client's implementation is right enough. |
_________________
Nerf Ball 2014
Last edited by xnoelx on %b %22, %2014 - %22:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
|
Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 22:26 |
|
| Wreckage wrote: | I think you are completely missing my point, regarding information transfer.
I asked for confirmation whether or not the current implementation is correct. |
*shrug*
your question is not the only relevant thing to this issue.
I'm not really bothered about the rules interpretation aspect, will leave that to others. but I think it would slightly buff Fend as a skill, and I think that's a good thing. It would also make the game faster, (which you did ask about), also a good thing
| bghandras wrote: | | Oly1987 wrote: | | theres no need to speed up play [...] |
[...] it is not good enough. |
indeed, any time the game could be made faster, it would be a good thing |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 22:42 |
|
| xnoelx wrote: | | Hmm. a) where does that bit about 'skills may be used at any time' come from? |
That was the part I was looking for. I couldn't find it. I found that instead.
b)| Quote: | | even if that is true, would you prefer block/wrestle to be handled by the client like your example? |
Not at all. I am content with the compromise between efficiency and rules loyality that has been chosen for the client. If I wasn't I'd still accept it because that was the route that was chosen. My issue is merely with an interpretation that is LESS correct by the rules AND is LESS efficient in terms of going through the game.
c) | Quote: | | it still wouldn't clarify whether the blocker or the Wrestler gets the choice first. Likewise (to get back to the OP) with the blocker or the Fender. |
I'm over this example since I couldn't proof I'm even right about this.
And d)| Quote: | | that quote from p14 specifies that the coach whose turn it is most use his skills first. Following up isn't a skill. |
The important part is that it states that a skill can be used after performing a relevant action or move. |
|
|
pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
|
| Posted:
Apr 22, 2014 - 22:52 |
|
| C3I2 wrote: | Logical structure vs. game efficiency structure, and it would for sure be a faster play if you only get asked about using fend after the follow up.
Now, imagine if you always got asked if you wanted to use dodge, or block? And yes there is also for sure situations where I would prefer to not use dodge/block when its auto use atm. |
I would complain to my MP |
_________________
 |
|
|
|
145 League and Tourn...
Search
