DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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 Posted:
Dec 23, 2014 - 17:53 |
 
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Just entered two newish teams of 1040 and 980TV into the Blackbox draw, and the 980TV team got the game against a side of 1030TV. Found that a little strange?
Does the matchmaker need to be tweaked, or is there some racial modifer and it's working fine (I was skaven against Khemri, who are hardly a top bracket side. My other team was Norse)?
This isn't a moan post ( I won, somewhat fortuitously) just raising it because this could lead to some very uneven match-ups for new teams. For example one of the things I really used to hate on Cyanide (many moons ago! Raises head above parapet...) was say min-maxed dwarfs or amazons hovering just above 1000TV with one or two Mighty Blow player/s, smashing up fresh teams... |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:00 |
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Um...
Failing to see how a 50tv difference is leading to unfavorable matchups.
Of course maybe the 10tv difference match should have been preferred, but even so. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:03 |
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it's possible that Norse weren't chosen because they start out that strong and Khemri overall have poor winning record.
It is possible that both your races would have given you a favorable matchup and the box chose the lower ranked team to compensate for it.
Also there is a randomizer.
Also please consider that it is really hard to ever get a game with a sub 1000 tv team in box, so be thankful you did. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:10 |
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Number of games is also a factor in deciding the schedule, but in this case the 980 team had 0 games and the 1030 and 1040 teams both had 2, so that wasn't what decided it. There is a racial modifier. You can see that on the "how does Box work?" page, which is linked from the activation page. Points 3a and 3b are likely to be what caused this particular match.
There is, as Wreckage pointed out, a randomness, but that factor is small and probably not relevant in this case. |
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Nobbaet
Joined: Mar 13, 2013
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:13 |
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https://fumbbl.com/p/notes?op=view&id=522
As you see in the graph in the end, there is no big difference between a 10k and a 50k difference and there are still missing the random and racial factors.
The scheduler cannot just always use the smallest difference as you would be able to manipulate it and arrange games with people you know. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:18 |
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50k is nothing really - had match ups with 200k difference, sometimes 300k and against coaches 2 ranks above me at least! |
Last edited by albinv on %b %23, %2014 - %18:%Dec; edited 1 time in total |
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DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:19 |
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Thanks xnoelx, that must explain it! It's good to know that there is some racial component in the matchmaker. Would respectfully disagree with Licker and Albinv - for example a vanilla side against, say dwarfs with one or two Mighty Blow players, or Woodies with a Strip Ball wardancer could be far more unbalanced than the '~20 -50TV' gap would suggest. Christer is obviously on the ball  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:24 |
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For stunty teams the Black Box matchmaking is truly sub-optimal.
I suggested a 100 TV modifier, but apparently there is no love for stunty teams.
After all, it's better to encourage powergamers with tier 1 teams. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:30 |
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That's a flawed assumption. There is plenty of love for stunty teams. We just don't want them to have any allowances made. The game is designed to be unbalanced, with better and worse teams, as that fits within the fluff. When you choose to play them, you do so knowing how the system works. If you wanted a team with better chances, you'd play a different team, not try to get your weak team artificially boosted. And people whose main concern is having a strong team still wouldn't play stunties with 100 TV modifier. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:40 |
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| xnoelx wrote: | | And people whose main concern is having a strong team still wouldn't play stunties with 100 TV modifier. |
There is a difference between challenging and nigh-on unplayable.
Currently stunties are not playable if you want to achieve a 50% win rate or slightly better in the long run in the Box.
Ruining your CR and win rate just because you want to play something different and bring variety to the Box (i.e. doing something positive to the Box instead of the usual clawpomb boredom) it's not a great incentive. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:47 |
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Numerous people have achieved a win rate well over 50% with stunties in B. And, as I said, people who are primarily concerned with CR and win rates still wouldn't play them with a 100TV modifier. It's like the premise behind NTBB: it's just not fitting for the game. Some races are just supposed to be much less powerful. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:50 |
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| DrDeath wrote: | | Thanks xnoelx, that must explain it! It's good to know that there is some racial component in the matchmaker. Would respectfully disagree with Licker and Albinv - for example a vanilla side against, say dwarfs with one or two Mighty Blow players, or Woodies with a Strip Ball wardancer could be far more unbalanced than the '~20 -50TV' gap would suggest. Christer is obviously on the ball |
Meh...
You're not always going to have a balanced matchup regardless.
50tv is nothing, and the min/max protection (or really lack of protection) helps keep truly abusive teams in check.
A dwarf team that has played 2 games and has 2x MB is a perfectly fair team for a team with 0 games to draw. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:52 |
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| xnoelx wrote: | | Numerous people have achieved a win rate well over 50% with stunties in B. And, as I said, people who are primarily concerned with CR and win rates still wouldn't play them with a 100TV modifier. Some races are just supposed to be much less powerful. |
Wait, how many games played?
I could achieve 100% win rate with a stunty team, if I'm lucky and I win my only game with them.
I'm talking about something like 30+ games with a stunty team.
I'm concerned with CR and I would play them with 100 TV modifier, since I'm already playing them with a matchmaking that makes EVEN MORE difficult playing with them, unlike leagues, where you after some matches start to play as underdog.
This is the point that nobody doesn't understand: stunties are meant to be challenging, I agree, but pairing all of their games by same TV makes them unplayable, more than they should per design. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Dec 23, 2014 - 18:59 |
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Well I was talking over 10+ games. However, with the latest scheduler, it seems to me that the best way to play them is at 30+ games, when you can get games with a big enough TV gap to give you inducements. Because, contrary to your statement, not all their games would be at the same TV.
Still, if you (as one of the CR-fretters you're using as the target audience) already play them without the modifier, then there is no need for it.
I just don't find those teams unplayable. I've had a record sprinting with stunties at least as good as I have with elves, for example. Playstyle is definitely a factor if you find them unplayable. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Dec 23, 2014 - 19:02 |
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Matt - your idea works for gobbos and flings but would make it even harder for brogres. They could maybe get a modifier the other way around. |
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