C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Mar 07, 2015 - 19:49 |
 
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In my first(!) Wood elf team I had some lucky MA+ rolls on a Catcher, and I figure I should try to prevent Ophelia from committing suicide for as long as possible. Hence its time for Block/Wrestle.
What do you normally chose for Wood elf catchers? Why? What do you chose for "natural one turners"? Why?
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=768064 |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Mar 07, 2015 - 19:51 |
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If he is gong to carry the ball, Wrestle is a bad idea. Block all the way.
Or Side Step for pure OTT action, hiding on the bench the rest of the time. |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Mar 07, 2015 - 20:03 |
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If he "carries" the ball he will be way behind the lines, then go forward for one pass or handover. So, the main job is to survive and to do (one turn) TDs. He really dont need sidestep to do that, at MV10+3, but sure I'd pick sidestep on anyone not at MV10.
Note that it will be quite some time before the rooster is larger then 11. Currently, he may then be on in defensive play as well. Then he might be a deep safety? Assuming wrestle. I´m obviously leaning towards one of the above. |
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tmoila
Joined: Nov 25, 2012
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Mar 07, 2015 - 20:05 |
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Leap...
But don't take wrestle for sure. Block is universally good, wrestle is inferior in so many ways, especially on a MA10 catcher. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Mar 07, 2015 - 20:11 |
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you've played 79 games with them. how are you asking such basic questions now?
also, try playing vs non-elf teams and you might learn how to use WEs properly. |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Mar 07, 2015 - 20:16 |
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Leap is actually an ok suggestion, as it focuses on the one turn aspect. I more or less already decided to forgo it, to increase chances of survival.
Why is wrestle inferior? I can see it being that if the job is HOLDing the ball in a cage, or if a large portion of the opponents have juggernaut. But othervise, it seems to increase survival. Right or wrong? |
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akaRenton
Joined: Apr 15, 2008
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Mar 07, 2015 - 20:16 |
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To be fair only 27 of those 79 games were against elf teams. But yeah, wrestle on a BC/receiver is probably a bad idea. |
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tmoila
Joined: Nov 25, 2012
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Mar 07, 2015 - 21:10 |
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| C3I2 wrote: |
Why is wrestle inferior? I can see it being that if the job is HOLDing the ball in a cage, or if a large portion of the opponents have juggernaut. But othervise, it seems to increase survival. Right or wrong? |
Wrestle doesn't keep your player standing, leaving him up for fouling. And countered by juggernaut as you said. I wouldn't take it on other players than sackers, but there is a school of thought that says linefodder benefits from wrestle more than block (I disagree). On MA10 catcher (ST2 no less) it might make sense, if he gets dauntless next to allow some long range sacking threat... mitigated by fact that wardancers do that better. |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Mar 07, 2015 - 21:28 |
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Indeed, I would pick dauntless, next if I select wrestle, most likely. That would make him a safety (sitting way back, reach everywhere, wrestle to negate block). The other alternatives at superstar level is sidestep and fend.
To be very specific:
Block_____Fend
Wrestle___Sidestep
_________Dauntless
_________(Pro)
I belive lineelfs live longer with wrestle (and they wont get Juggernauted either, as that is a blitz only skill). Some of you must have played teams I field with lots and lots of wrestle. |
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NerdBird
Joined: Apr 08, 2014
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Mar 07, 2015 - 22:09 |
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| pythrr wrote: | you've played 79 games with them. how are you asking such basic questions now?
also, try playing vs non-elf teams and you might learn how to use WEs properly. |
| akaRenton wrote: | | To be fair only 27 of those 79 games were against elf teams. |
And also he has played Vamps, Ogres gobbos, slann or skaven 15 times...so in 79 games we have 42 against easier opponents..... But that's fine by me. What I find ridiculous is the number of times playing well down in TV. Like playing a TV 131 Skaven when you are 214. 1 dwarf...2 easy chaos teams and 0 chaos dwarf.
All that said and done...a positive casualty difference (+55) with a Wood Elf team that old is all I need to know. |
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C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
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Mar 08, 2015 - 14:07 |
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Nobody, have given actual reasons and arguments, that are enough to convince me of block instead of wrestle. It is the same on IRC a lot have opinions but they cant or wont give the reasons for those opinions. |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Mar 08, 2015 - 20:51 |
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Wrestle and Block seem very similar, but in reality they have two quite different uses.
Block is more straightforward. It's both defensive and offensive, can't be countered by anything and will keep your player upright.
On a ball handler it's useful because you expect this player to get hit a lot and you want to keep him standing and holding onto the ball.
Wrestle has similar defensive qualities because it means you'll surrender fewer turnovers and you'll suffer fewer injuries than without the skill- but it has some key uses that distinguish it from block.
Offensively it's great because all those players with block who are safe from your blockers are now going to be pulled to the ground. They might not be hurt, but they'll be losing their TZ and they'll also be losing the ball.
They'll be open to fouling now too.
So if you want a specialist ball hunter/sacker then wrestle is useful because you'll be able to take down block ball carriers. Combined with strip ball and tackle there aren't many players can keep the ball after a blitz from this player.
On the other hand, if you have a dedicated ball carrier then you want block. Wrestle won't be any more help against another wrestle player, but it will protect you from being grounded by blockers.
It also means you're not deliberately placing your valuable and fragile OTTDer on the floor with a "foul me" sticker on his back. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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Mar 08, 2015 - 20:58 |
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Ok, put it this way. I would LOVE for you to take Wrestle on that catcher. That way, when I jump into a cage and roll both down, instead of standing there, he goes to the ground and gives up the ball. And even better, if he is not in a cage, and he is wrestled to the ground and hands over the ball easy, I can also kick him in the head. 
Wrestle is great skill on a ball carrier, for your opponent's players... |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Mar 08, 2015 - 21:31 |
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| NerdBird wrote: | | pythrr wrote: | you've played 79 games with them. how are you asking such basic questions now?
also, try playing vs non-elf teams and you might learn how to use WEs properly. |
| akaRenton wrote: | | To be fair only 27 of those 79 games were against elf teams. |
And also he has played Vamps, Ogres gobbos, slann or skaven 15 times...so in 79 games we have 42 against easier opponents..... But that's fine by me. What I find ridiculous is the number of times playing well down in TV. Like playing a TV 131 Skaven when you are 214. 1 dwarf...2 easy chaos teams and 0 chaos dwarf.
All that said and done...a positive casualty difference (+55) with a Wood Elf team that old is all I need to know. |
yeah, terrible case of R TV picking. Makes other R teams look bad. |
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Smeat
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
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Mar 09, 2015 - 00:28 |
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| C3I2 wrote: | | Nobody, have given actual reasons and arguments, that are enough to convince me of block instead of wrestle. |
???
Yes they have!...
| tmoila wrote: | | Wrestle doesn't keep your player standing, leaving him up for fouling... |
You want numbers?
Any time a Wrestler Blocks/Blitzes, 1/12 (3/36) is Both-Down - and that puts him on the ground before your opponent's Turn. Foul city.
Any time he's Blocked/Blitzed w/ a 2D, Both-Down puts a Wrestler on the ground when Block would keep him standing. (Not going to grind all the numbers - specific result varies depending what Blocker has. Block? Tackle? But he's down ~a lot~ more, more than +3/36.)
| C3I2 wrote: | | If he "carries" the ball he will be way behind the lines, then go forward for one pass or handover. |
Except that any good coach knows that plans need to change sometimes mid-Turn. If he has the ball and you decide NOT to pass/handoff, then... he still has the ball.
And if he goes downfield to Catch a pass - again, Wrestle = Ground more than Block. So either no score, or a longer pass - ~IF~ he can get to the endzone from the ground.
And if, as your fastest player, he gets the ball on a Defensive steal, your reasoning goes out the window. Then it's 100% Block.
| C3I2 wrote: | | ...So, the main job is to survive and to do (one turn) TDs... |
"Survive" is the main key here. Wrestle puts him on the ground, sometimes at the end of your turn, and open to AV 7 fouls.
(You put Wrestle on your Passer, who may well have the ball more than 1 turn - how's that working for you?) 
| Quote: | | Note that it will be quite some time before the rooster is larger then 11. Currently, he may then be on in defensive play as well. Then he might be a deep safety? Assuming wrestle. I´m obviously leaning towards one of the above. |
If you want a Sweeper, then give a different Catcher Wrestle (and Dauntless/etc.) and go from there. MA 8 is ample on a Sweeper, and this one doesn't have room for all the skills a decent Sweeper needs. Why have a half-assed one with MA 10 when you can have a great one w/ MA 8 and a better OTS w/ MA 10?
EDIT:
You took Wrestle??? Why in Nuffle's name did you do that? (Or, why pretend to ask for advice in this thread and then ignore all that advice?)
You can get it changed before you play a game with him if you want - file a Ticket.
But a +MA +MA player should get skills that help him do what he does best - score - and that's not Wrestle.
o Block protects him, keeps him standing when he's not OTS'ing, and gives him a job on defense.
o Sure Feet if you want to maximize OTS.
o Sidestep makes OTS easier if you want to try the chaimpushes (1 less GFI) and keeps him alive better.
o Leap is awesome for OTS, tho' equally less re the "keeps him alive" part.
But Wrestle is just a mistake. Trust us all. o.O |
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