licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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 Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 17:11 |
 
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| Harad wrote: | | Licker someone shared with me break tackle on a ST3 AG3 player. Make that second worst. |
There are obviously bad choices from coaches who don't know better, or from coaches who are going for something other than building a competitive player/team.
My point is that this is supposedly a competitive team which is trying to actually build strong players.
Taking leap on a troll is awesome, but it's obviously a joke.
Taking kick on a wardancer is just idiotic, unless you're trying to make a joke. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Mar 25, 2015 - 17:12 |
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| licker wrote: | I won't bother to explain it to you, and I'll just continue to tell you that your selection of kick on this player was the worst skill selection in the history of fumbbl.
Literally. I mean that literally, there has never been a worse skill selection. |
No really, I need it explained to me.
Look, here's my reasoning. I want kick. Ergo, if I don't take kick on the wardancer, I have to take it on a lineman.
Basically, you are going to have to convince me that frenzy/fend/whatever is better than dodge. Purplegoo advises not to put all eggs in one basket. Maybe he's right. Wouldn't I rather have an extra dodge lineman than a sub-par legend skill on that wardancer? Explain how that makes the team better, please.
I am not understanding how a fend wardancer makes my team significantly better than not having to waste a lineman skillup on kick. |
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JMkiller
Joined: Jun 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 17:18 |
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It was a missclick  |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Mar 25, 2015 - 17:23 |
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| licker wrote: | I think you miss the larger point.
Ok, I don't think you do, I know you do.
Since you're just interested in trolling though I won't bother to explain it to you, and I'll just continue to tell you that your selection of kick on this player was the worst skill selection in the history of fumbbl.
Literally. I mean that literally, there has never been a worse skill selection. |
Reign it back a bit, this is coming across as facetious. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Mar 25, 2015 - 17:28 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | | licker wrote: | I won't bother to explain it to you, and I'll just continue to tell you that your selection of kick on this player was the worst skill selection in the history of fumbbl.
Literally. I mean that literally, there has never been a worse skill selection. |
No really, I need it explained to me.
Look, here's my reasoning. I want kick. Ergo, if I don't take kick on the wardancer, I have to take it on a lineman.
Basically, you are going to have to convince me that frenzy/fend/whatever is better than dodge. Purplegoo advises not to put all eggs in one basket. Maybe he's right. Wouldn't I rather have an extra dodge lineman than a sub-par legend skill on that wardancer? Explain how that makes the team better, please.
I am not understanding how a fend wardancer makes my team significantly better than not having to waste a lineman skillup on kick. |
Fend help your wardancer to stay alive. And 70% (at least) of your victiories came from your wardancer (like 90% of skave victories come from Gutters). If you lose a line for a piling on or a juggernaut frenzy crowd push, well, shit happens. If it is the legend wardancer that die, your team will be crippled a lot. |
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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Mar 25, 2015 - 17:29 |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| licker wrote: | | I feel the same way about Leader for teams with rrs more expensive than 50k. |
I brought up this discussion recently on a PM. It's not the topic here so I'll keep it short, but the basic point was that people often select leader without thinking about the opportunity cost. It may save you 40TV over a re-roll but you're also losing a skill on your team. It's even worse value on a double. I think my conclusion was that it's rarel worth it on Dwarves, and that Skaven and Human throwers are the only times it's really optimal. (All just opinion, obviously) |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Mar 25, 2015 - 17:40 |
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| mister__joshua wrote: | | I think my conclusion was that it's rarel worth it on Dwarves, and that Skaven and Human throwers are the only times it's really optimal. (All just opinion, obviously) |
Well, it's really quite nice on Pact marauders too.
I don't take leader a lot, but I will usually take it late on a thrower if I already have all the skills I want. It's actually quite similar to this wardancer issue...
Sure Hands, Dodge, Block, Kick/Leader is perfectly fine on an elf thrower, if you use a thrower at all. If the next skill doesn't do much to actually improve the player, why not take a skill that doesn't care what player it's on? |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 17:52 |
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Who's talking about fend?
The obvious choice is diving tackle. Slightly less appealing to me, but still good is wrestle.
Kick is a throw away skill you take on a throw away lino. That's his only skill. He gets killed (which doesn't actually happen every game, especially in R...) so what, you play without kick for a couple of games and put it on the next one. Or he takes -MA or -AG, again, so what? His job is to be on the pitch for a kick off or two and take up space. -ST or -AV and I'd probably retire him though.
If he doesn't get killed then he might add dodge, or even block (wrestle is better for longevity though). Don't you want someone to attack your lineman instead of your good players?
Rule of 5 is fine if that's how you want to approach things, but it ONLY applies on one play. After that, unless you're just running everyone away you have to put good players at risk eventually. Or you're probably playing sub par defense since you would appear to be more concerned about protecting your 5 than about playing 'correct' defense. Yes, there are 'it depends' situations which apply, but if you're happy to allow a 2:1 grind attempt be my guest.
Also, and I may have mentioned this, having kick on your lino doesn't mean he dies the first time he gets blitzed in a game. It doesn't even mean he get's KOed. That line of thought is ludicrous (along with the overwhelming belief that rule of 5 is pathway to long term success). You should even realize that kick doesn't even help you every time, and that you probably only need it to work once in a game. Heck, if you always choose to defend 1st (cuz your opponent will probably choose to receive) then you always get to use it that one time when you have 11 bodies to try and take advantage of it.
What you have now is a Wardancer who you think was complete at 76spp so you didn't even want another skill for him. You have this notion that he was already perfect and didn't need any additional skills for him to perform his role on your team.
That's fine too, but it's such a rigid way of looking at player development and team development that I believe you have lost the forest for the tree (which you have on your team!). I'm pretty sure you've been down this path before, designing optimal builds from before a player even records his first spp. There's certainly something to be said about having a plan for how you would build a team, but blinding adhering to those 'rules' leads to madness, and sub par play/development because you are too locked into only 'your way'.
Thus we get back to why you would take kick, a throw away skill fit for any random lineman, on a player who still can take skills which otherwise provide more benefit in more situations. Diving tackle, wrestle, sure hands, even fend if you pixel hug a lot... all of those give you more use during various parts of a match (especially diving tackle and wrestle) than does kick. But it's not so much about taking a semi-useful skill on him, it's about taking a skill which belongs on a lineman on a positional when you still have superior choices. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 17:57 |
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Well I think kick was a good choice. I've long been of the opinion that WDs don't actually get a lot of value out of skill ups barring the obvious power ones and + stats so I like this pick a lot. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 18:04 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Well I think kick was a good choice. I've long been of the opinion that WDs don't actually get a lot of value out of skill ups barring the obvious power ones and + stats so I like this pick a lot. |
No further questions. The defense rests, Your Honor. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 18:16 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Well I think kick was a good choice. I've long been of the opinion that WDs don't actually get a lot of value out of skill ups barring the obvious power ones and + stats so I like this pick a lot. |
No further questions. The defense rests, Your Honor. |
I bow to your wisdom.
Except I'm facing the other way.
And I'm not wearing any pants.
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Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 18:23 |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 18:28 |
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| licker wrote: | | What you have now is a Wardancer who you think was complete at 76spp so you didn't even want another skill for him. You have this notion that he was already perfect and didn't need any additional skills for him to perform his role on your team. |
Licker, you argue your point pretty well. Much better than the hyperbole of previous posts. We don't agree, and the section I quoted actually argues my point better than I did. You're absolutely correct, he was perfect at 76spp, and barring a double/stat, I had for a long time planned on taking kick in this situation.
| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Well I think kick was a good choice. I've long been of the opinion that WDs don't actually get a lot of value out of skill ups barring the obvious power ones and + stats so I like this pick a lot. |
Thanks Jimmy. I agree completely.
Anyways, ended up being a good discussion, which was the point. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 18:36 |
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Kick is quite an OK choice. Diving tackle would have been a much worse choice on any level. I would have considered wrestle, pro, frenzy, but kick is not a bad idea at all. If you don't want to build a specialist, then kick is gold. Specialists are different route. I would personally build 2 specialist dancers:
1. sacker
2. frenzy
But I can understand why you take the generalist route. I have only one comment: I prefer stat increase on the sacker, and not on the frenzied one. |
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