Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Mar 25, 2015 - 18:45 |
 
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Oh and Licker, I do what I can to keep those wardancers alive, but hardly to the point you infer. His legend game was a cakewalk, but take a look at the game before...
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3665507
3 leaps, GFI's, desperation plays trying to win the game. Got knocked over once, fell down himself twice. Headlong into a cage on two occasions. Sure I keep him out of the line of fire when I can, but not leaving your wardancers exposed isn't cowardly, it's smart. If anything, I'm playing rule of 2, with the catcher spending a lot of time away from the action due to not having block. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:04 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | JimmyFantastic wrote: | | Well I think kick was a good choice. I've long been of the opinion that WDs don't actually get a lot of value out of skill ups barring the obvious power ones and + stats so I like this pick a lot. |
No further questions. The defense rests, Your Honor. |
Well the defense rested on a very bad point then and their client is going to get roasted by the jury.
Kick as a legend skill in NO WAY makes him better. It is a totally passive skill that does not help him out.
Heck I would say Sure feet: Free reroll on GFI is a huge advantage for him and the team.
Sure Hands: free reroll for picking up loose balls is a huge advantage for the team.
The list can go on and on on skills he could of taken that would have made him more powerful in the context of the team.
Heck even Diving Catch is a better skill: poor mans NoS against one TZ, catch a bouncing ball that hits him. Diving Catch can be a game breaker skill every 15 games if you have it.
Kick? Ah, um, mmm, my mind has gone blank on how kick is better than, well, any skill up he could have taken. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:13 |
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I fail at jokes.  |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:17 |
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| happygrue wrote: | | I fail at jokes. |
Do not worry about it.
Da rat just threw this out to get everybody all worked up. I think he had issues with the elf balling discussion and some coaches used his own words against him. So he is just deflecting with this topic.
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:20 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | Oh and Licker, I do what I can to keep those wardancers alive, but hardly to the point you infer. His legend game was a cakewalk, but take a look at the game before...
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3665507
3 leaps, GFI's, desperation plays trying to win the game. Got knocked over once, fell down himself twice. Headlong into a cage on two occasions. Sure I keep him out of the line of fire when I can, but not leaving your wardancers exposed isn't cowardly, it's smart. If anything, I'm playing rule of 2, with the catcher spending a lot of time away from the action due to not having block. |
Did I say to leave them exposed?
My point is that with your rationalization of the rule of 5 meaning you don't want/need any skills on 6 players because you can't protect them, you are wasting the opportunity to take those utility skills (of which kick clearly is).
Kick goes on a lineman. Period.
Putting it on a wardancer is just silly.
I'll stick up for diving tackle too, that's a great skill on a blodge/ss/tackle guy. Why you wouldn't want it is really beyond me. If you're scared he'll get fouled then you do not understand how diving tackle works or when you should use it, or, quite possibly both.
There's also solid reasons to take sure hands or sure feet (though MA9 and I'd likely hope to not need sure feet as much), but only you know how often that player needs to pick up the ball or roll gfis.
We all know exactly how many times kick will be used in most games. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:25 |
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Whoever plans on diving tackle might be blocked, and be killed. This is not a risk which is profitable on a legend wardancer. Actually quite a proposition with negative value.
Wardancers should employ a hit and run tactic, not a frontline role. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:35 |
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| bghandras wrote: | | Whoever plans on diving tackle might be blocked, and be killed. |
Ok, lets step back.
This makes no sense. Every single player on a team from rookie to Legend player of FUMBBL can be killed at any moment by the whim of NUFFLE.
I do not believe there is any skill that allows a free roll to reverse the will of NUFFLE.
SO
All us mortals have at our disposal is to skill up our pixels to the best of their ability for their very short life span.
Thus, Kick, in that context on that player, wardancer, is a total waste of a skill. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %25, %2015 - %19:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:35 |
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Fair enough.
But, do you think that you need to use DT every turn? Do you even need to actually mark someone for diving tackle to be effective on defense?
On this player (or most AV7 players honestly) DT is more of a utility skill than a use every turn skill. It shines at stopping 2 turn scores mostly, but it also has great use in allowing you more options in how you might set a screen of your own ball carrier, especially if the DT player is the only one on the break out with them.
My experience playing DE (which are different from WE, yes I get that) dictates that when I have a blodge/ss/dt player I can take many more liberties with my positioning than when I do not. And no, that player is not always cuddling up to someone, play them one square off directly in front and if the ball is back enough opponent cannot score without going through it. Better then to mark the ball with someone expendable of course to draw the blitz elsewhere.
It's also very effective against other elf sides who are unlikely to be able to out bash you. But it's really great against lower AG teams who wind up having to take chances to score without just being able to grind a cage down the field, though even there, diving tackle is useful in hindering their positioning abilities. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:41 |
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Now here is another thought. Lets take this Wardancer. You could argue that a wardancer actually only needs 3 maybe 4 skills to be very effective at his job.
SO
Why jam 5 or 6 on a dancer and his wing man dancer? You have just taken 4-7 skills away from the rest of the team. You skill up 6 linemen with just one skill roll, keep your dancers at the 3-4 skill level to be effective and now you have a much better overall team.
This rule of 5 is rubbish IMO. You skill up 5 guys on a 12 man roster and they take on a 16 man old school LRB4 team with 16 skilled up players...That is when you will see the weakness of the rule of 5. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:42 |
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I fully agree that diving tackle is golden on dark elves. But the team composition is totally different. Blitzers (and in general positionals) are abundant in dark elf teams. Meanwhile woodies have the 2 dancers and everybody else. So it is critical to minimize all the blocks to dancers, while darkies do not give much s... about that. Dark elves are more resilient (higher armor), and also more expendable.
Please note that I am not referring to developing players, but winning the actual match that they are playing in! |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:45 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Da rat just threw this out to get everybody all worked up. I think he had issues with the elf balling discussion and some coaches used his own words against him. So he is just deflecting with this topic. |
That thread is stupid, but don't lump me in with that lot. I've got 180 games on Ornbarad, five legends, and by the methodology Kam used, not in the same class. Under a quarter of my games are vs elves, and half of those are against DE. Truth be told, I played a lot of stunties early on, but haven't played one in over 65 matches, going back to July of 2013. 50 of my games have been against Chaos, Pact, CD, Orcs, Khemri, or Dwarves. I've played the newscasters 3 times, and I've got a match against just about every legend on this site.
Those chumps don't take games like this, suck it up, rebuild, and move on. They retire their little loser elf teams when whatever stat freak they are building it around dies. No, I don't serve up legend wardancers to every emerging star with a tacklepomber and an axe to grind, but I don't duck good coaches unless they've got some hilariously anti-elf lineup... so basically Humans and other fast tacklepomber teams.
Uxel Woodies on tour we ain't. |
Last edited by Rat_Salat on %b %25, %2015 - %19:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:52 |
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| bghandras wrote: | I fully agree that diving tackle is golden on dark elves. But the team composition is totally different. Blitzers (and in general positionals) are abundant in dark elf teams. Meanwhile woodies have the 2 dancers and everybody else. So it is critical to minimize all the blocks to dancers, while darkies do not give much s... about that. Dark elves are more resilient (higher armor), and also more expendable.
Please note that I am not referring to developing players, but winning the actual match that they are playing in! |
I don't disagree that minimizing blocks taken to your core players is important, I just don't see how adding diving tackle as a legend skill increases the blocks this player would take dramatically.
Unless you choose to use them in a foolish manner. Point is, you only have to use diving tackle once per game to improve your odds of winning, drastically in many cases. Because diving tackle is one of those skills which can shut down quick score attempts better than just about any other skill in the game. Mass Disturbing Appearance maybe better, but only Nurgle is going to play that trick.
I would not take diving tackle as an early skill on a war dancer (4th or 5th depending on whatever other factors apply), but not having it at all on an elf team just seems like a badly designed elf team. It's a core shut down skill in my opinion, and elfs can spam blodge/ss/tackle/diving tackle better than any other roster. Not that you need multiple players all built that way, but you can have several blodgers, you can have some side steppers, you will have some amount of tackle, so adding DT on top of a stack of skills is cheap and easy, and by that point in a players development, short of doubles or stats, it's the best bang for the buck.
Also the only reason I take catchers on my zon teams, because they build into blodge/ss/diving tackle pretty quickly, and they become very disruptive players on defense, especially when you have 2 of them. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:55 |
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| licker wrote: |
That's fine too, but it's such a rigid way of looking at player development and team development that I believe you have lost the forest for the tree (which you have on your team!). |
| Quote: | | But it's not so much about taking a semi-useful skill on him, it's about taking a skill which belongs on a lineman on a positional when you still have superior choices. |
I think it's pretty rigid insisting that Kick goes on a lino regardless of team circumstance.
If you regard future potential skills and player development highly, choosing a SPP null skill and totally fungible utility skill for the team, on a Legend who will never get a meaningful SPP in their career again makes some sense.
Taking Kick first on a lino sets them up to never do anything ever again with their career if the coach is a TV efficient hard ass. You won't feed him the ball, you won't make many blocks with him until he gets a core skill. You might foul with him.
Get stats or a double with your 2nd skill after taking Kick first? Would you retire a +stat Kick Lino? Or would you just bypass a stat and take a core skill in lieu of a stat or doubles?
In short: Taking Kick on this guy frees up any other player who doesn't ride the line to be better in the long term, provides a useful skill and given the other skills available to the WD, it's not an egregious choice if you want to avoid actions that necessitate risk.
Furthermore:
With other teams I totally understand Kick on a lino - the linos are cheap and you might foul with them after the kick, they dont have anything but G access, other candidate players on the team have S access or Blodge access with the first two skills, they have a terrible time skilling up because of inherent stats, so on and so forth.
I understand where you're coming from but it's no less rigid and rote than where Rat Salat is coming from.  |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 19:57 |
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I didn't take diving tackle because other AV7 elves won't play us. We've only got 11 games against Wood/Pro elves. Obviously my string of stat boosted mighty blow wardancers have a lot to do with that, but keying up for elfball wasn't in the playbook. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Mar 25, 2015 - 19:57 |
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| licker wrote: | | Point is, you only have to use diving tackle once per game to improve your odds of winning, drastically in many cases. |
It is quite possible that you will use it once a game, and it gives you a chance to win. On the other hand the same could be said about kick. Except that kick gives you at least 2 chances, but most of the time 3 chances. It is up to playing style and preference how significant those chances could be. Point is that diving tackle is at least as situational as kick. |
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