PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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 Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 20:02 |
 
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | | PainState wrote: | | Da rat just threw this out to get everybody all worked up. I think he had issues with the elf balling discussion and some coaches used his own words against him. So he is just deflecting with this topic. |
That thread is stupid, but don't lump me in with that lot. I've got 180 games on Ornbarad, five legends, and by the methodology Kam used, not in the same class. Under a quarter of my games are vs elves, and half of those are against DE. Truth be told, I played a lot of stunties early on, but haven't played one in over 65 matches, going back to July of 2013. 50 of my games have been against Chaos, Pact, CD, Orcs, Khemri, or Dwarves. I've played the newscasters 3 times, and I've got a match against just about every legend on this site.
Those chumps don't take games like this, suck it up, rebuild, and move on. They retire their little loser elf teams when whatever stat freak they are building it around dies. No, I don't serve up legend wardancers to every emerging star with a tacklepomber and an axe to grind, but I don't duck good coaches unless they've got some hilariously anti-elf lineup... so basically Humans and other fast tacklepomber teams.
Uxel Woodies on tour we ain't. |
RAHHH!!!!!
Let it out man.. I know you got some more in you. This is good, sometimes blowing the stack clears the air, lets one think clearly.
  
And I appreciate you avoid my Buccaneers like the plague, Iam not offended and you are right, Humans "own" elves once they get up and running. Humanity is superior to the elves in every way in Blood Bowl.
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 20:03 |
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| licker wrote: | | bghandras wrote: | I fully agree that diving tackle is golden on dark elves. But the team composition is totally different. Blitzers (and in general positionals) are abundant in dark elf teams. Meanwhile woodies have the 2 dancers and everybody else. So it is critical to minimize all the blocks to dancers, while darkies do not give much s... about that. Dark elves are more resilient (higher armor), and also more expendable.
Please note that I am not referring to developing players, but winning the actual match that they are playing in! |
I don't disagree that minimizing blocks taken to your core players is important, I just don't see how adding diving tackle as a legend skill increases the blocks this player would take dramatically.
Unless you choose to use them in a foolish manner. Point is, you only have to use diving tackle once per game to improve your odds of winning, drastically in many cases. Because diving tackle is one of those skills which can shut down quick score attempts better than just about any other skill in the game. Mass Disturbing Appearance maybe better, but only Nurgle is going to play that trick.
I would not take diving tackle as an early skill on a war dancer (4th or 5th depending on whatever other factors apply), but not having it at all on an elf team just seems like a badly designed elf team. It's a core shut down skill in my opinion, and elfs can spam blodge/ss/tackle/diving tackle better than any other roster. Not that you need multiple players all built that way, but you can have several blodgers, you can have some side steppers, you will have some amount of tackle, so adding DT on top of a stack of skills is cheap and easy, and by that point in a players development, short of doubles or stats, it's the best bang for the buck.
Also the only reason I take catchers on my zon teams, because they build into blodge/ss/diving tackle pretty quickly, and they become very disruptive players on defense, especially when you have 2 of them. |
Diving Tackle is circumstantial and takes a lot of consideration
1. Is there a player or ball worth marking?
2. Is the player he's marking have skills that can harm him
3. Is there a player within Blitz range who has those skills
3b. And is that Blitz option one of the best available options for your opponent at that point in the game?
4. Are you blocking off space while not opening yourself to a Blitz?
If you can build a Legendary Wardancer and play at 1600+ TV, it stands to reason that there will be tools at your opponents disposal that take the bloom off of Diving Tackle and putting your Wardancer in a spot where it can get messed up. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %25, %2015 - %20:%Mar; edited 2 times in total |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 20:08 |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 20:19 |
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| PainState wrote: | | And I appreciate you avoid my Buccaneers like the plague, Iam not offended and you are right, Humans "own" elves once they get up and running. Humanity is superior to the elves in every way in Blood Bowl. |
Playing you twice in 180 games is hardly "avoiding you like the plague". You're 1-1 against Ornbarad, and your sole victory was a comeback from 3-1 down that required tacklepombing my legend wardancer on turn 1, a blitz, sweltering heat removing all remaining positionals, and a near pitch clearance. You managed to kill my High Elf thrower and MNG my +ST mighty blow elf blitzer when I was generous enough to give you a third Elf vs Human game.
In return, you haven't seen fit to reciprocate with any matches that aren't tacklepomber humans vs elves, while trolling me about picking. Thanks for that. The bucs seem to be in quite a sorry state right now. Let me know if you need a few of those niggles retired. |
Last edited by Rat_Salat on %b %25, %2015 - %20:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 20:25 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | | PainState wrote: | | And I appreciate you avoid my Buccaneers like the plague, Iam not offended and you are right, Humans "own" elves once they get up and running. Humanity is superior to the elves in every way in Blood Bowl. |
Playing you twice in 180 games is hardly "avoiding you like the plague". You're 1-1 against Ornbarad, and your sole victory was a comeback from 3-1 down that required tacklepombing my legend wardancer on turn 1, a blitz, sweltering heat removing all remaining positionals, and a near pitch clearance. You managed to kill my High Elf thrower and MNG my +ST mighty blow elf blitzer when I was generous enough to give you a third Elf vs Human game.
In return, you haven't seen fit to reciprocate with any matches that aren't tacklepomber humans vs elves, while trolling me about picking. Thanks for that. |
LOL!!! OMG!!!
Thats what Iam talking about, let if flow man.
You see FUMBBL fans, that is why the Buccaneers are a legendary team. Once we rip your team to shreds....YOU NEVER, EVER FORGET!!!!!
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 20:27 |
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GRUDGE MATCH! GRUDGE MATCH! FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT! |
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BobBifford
Joined: Jul 17, 2014
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 21:04 |
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| licker wrote: | | Really bad pick. Literally anything would have been better. |
i agree |
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BobBifford
Joined: Jul 17, 2014
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| Posted:
Mar 25, 2015 - 21:21 |
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Was really sure hand a choice and you took kick???
... |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 01:58 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | licker wrote: | | bghandras wrote: | I fully agree that diving tackle is golden on dark elves. But the team composition is totally different. Blitzers (and in general positionals) are abundant in dark elf teams. Meanwhile woodies have the 2 dancers and everybody else. So it is critical to minimize all the blocks to dancers, while darkies do not give much s... about that. Dark elves are more resilient (higher armor), and also more expendable.
Please note that I am not referring to developing players, but winning the actual match that they are playing in! |
I don't disagree that minimizing blocks taken to your core players is important, I just don't see how adding diving tackle as a legend skill increases the blocks this player would take dramatically.
Unless you choose to use them in a foolish manner. Point is, you only have to use diving tackle once per game to improve your odds of winning, drastically in many cases. Because diving tackle is one of those skills which can shut down quick score attempts better than just about any other skill in the game. Mass Disturbing Appearance maybe better, but only Nurgle is going to play that trick.
I would not take diving tackle as an early skill on a war dancer (4th or 5th depending on whatever other factors apply), but not having it at all on an elf team just seems like a badly designed elf team. It's a core shut down skill in my opinion, and elfs can spam blodge/ss/tackle/diving tackle better than any other roster. Not that you need multiple players all built that way, but you can have several blodgers, you can have some side steppers, you will have some amount of tackle, so adding DT on top of a stack of skills is cheap and easy, and by that point in a players development, short of doubles or stats, it's the best bang for the buck.
Also the only reason I take catchers on my zon teams, because they build into blodge/ss/diving tackle pretty quickly, and they become very disruptive players on defense, especially when you have 2 of them. |
Diving Tackle is circumstantial and takes a lot of consideration
1. Is there a player or ball worth marking?
2. Is the player he's marking have skills that can harm him
3. Is there a player within Blitz range who has those skills
3b. And is that Blitz option one of the best available options for your opponent at that point in the game?
4. Are you blocking off space while not opening yourself to a Blitz?
If you can build a Legendary Wardancer and play at 1600+ TV, it stands to reason that there will be tools at your opponents disposal that take the bloom off of Diving Tackle and putting your Wardancer in a spot where it can get messed up. |
As opposed to putting a worthless skill like kick on him? Oh, then no one will ever bother blocking him because they will be laughing so hard at how terrible a skill kick is for him.
Seriously, a legend war dancer is going to draw attention no matter what skills you put on them, but that's beside the point of actually putting useful skills on him. See, diving tackle is not very useful by itself, you don't see anyone taking it as a first option. It only really is useful on blodgers, and then it's better if you have side step (talking elfs, other teams may take it with stand firm), then it's even better if you also have tackle.
Guess what? This war dancer has all of that (and +MA and MB), he has a spot to add a skill which makes it much much more difficult for your opponent to score.
Ok, kick can also do this, but, you can (and should) take kick on ANYONE. You can take it as a 1st skill even, it just doesn't matter and it doesn't hurt your team remotely to have it on a random lineman.
See, we're not living in a vacuum where there is only the option of taking kick on a wardancer or not taking kick at all. We're living in a world where you have 6+ linemen on your team to take a few shots and take up space. Give them the throwaway skills, save real skills for players who matter. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Mar 26, 2015 - 02:37 |
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I wish I could know all possible outcomes in BB!
I just wouldn't want to risk the OTTD threat and Mighty Blow player on the team to get mileage out of the synergy of SS/Diving Tackle. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 02:41 |
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| licker wrote: | | Big wall of text |
You've got 2 skillups. One is on that legend wardancer, the other is on a rookie lineman. One of them gets kick, the other one gets a skill.
There is no possible GA skill you can put on that wardancer that is better than dodge on that line elf. There just isn't. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 03:52 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | I wish I could know all possible outcomes in BB!
I just wouldn't want to risk the OTTD threat and Mighty Blow player on the team to get mileage out of the synergy of SS/Diving Tackle. |
I don't even know how to reply to something so misguided. How does taking kick or DT remotely affect the ability of this player to one turn?
Do you really not understand how to use a player who has DT?
| Quote: | You've got 2 skillups. One is on that legend wardancer, the other is on a rookie lineman. One of them gets kick, the other one gets a skill.
There is no possible GA skill you can put on that wardancer that is better than dodge on that line elf. There just isn't. |
No, you have an infinite number of skill ups for an infinite number of rookie linemen.
You have only one skill up for the wardancer.
See... this is the problem with your obsession with the rule of 5, you don't see the bigger picture. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Mar 26, 2015 - 05:08 |
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The OTTD is role he can fulfill give his SS, MA9 and Leap. I wouldn't want to put his health at risk any more than I have to given his latent ability to do that and also being the only MB Tackle player. That's what I meant. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Mar 26, 2015 - 05:11 |
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how is his health more at risk with DT than with something else?
unless you use him in a very reckless and silly manner |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 05:25 |
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That's the dilemma of Diving Tackle though, isn't it? What do you consider some ideal usage scenarios? What is reckless? Do you have any explicit examples where Diving Tackle won games? Help us out.
I don't pretend to play with an understanding of positioning, I know my limits as a coach and this whole DT business would either not be utilized well or would put him on the fast track to the dustbin. |
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