licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
|
 Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 05:53 |
 
|
I don't see it remotely as a dilemma, but I don't play pixel hugging R or B so maybe my mentality is just different. |
|
|
nufflehatesme
Joined: Nov 02, 2011
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 06:08 |
|
| licker wrote: |
On this player (or most AV7 players honestly) DT is more of a utility skill than a use every turn skill. It shines at stopping 2 turn scores mostly
|
i hear kick also helps with stopping the 2 turn score.
kick is a skill that will win games by itself. you want it on your elf team every game. seems nice to have it on a player that is probably going to play every drive, every game, until he dies. |
|
|
licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 06:09 |
|
| nufflehatesme wrote: | | licker wrote: |
On this player (or most AV7 players honestly) DT is more of a utility skill than a use every turn skill. It shines at stopping 2 turn scores mostly
|
i hear kick also helps with stopping the 2 turn score.
kick is a skill that will win games by itself. you want it on your elf team every game. seems nice to have it on a player that is probably going to play every drive, every game, until he dies. |
Asked and answered.
Honestly, it's as though people just don't understand that you're allowed to take skills on linemen and that linemen don't actually die every time they see the field. |
|
|
Jim_Fear
Joined: May 02, 2014
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 06:28 |
|
| Beerox wrote: |
Bout as much sense as a screen door on a battleship. |
"It's screen door on a submarine, you dork."
- Marty McFly |
|
|
mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 07:39 |
|
| licker wrote: | | nufflehatesme wrote: | | licker wrote: |
On this player (or most AV7 players honestly) DT is more of a utility skill than a use every turn skill. It shines at stopping 2 turn scores mostly
|
i hear kick also helps with stopping the 2 turn score.
kick is a skill that will win games by itself. you want it on your elf team every game. seems nice to have it on a player that is probably going to play every drive, every game, until he dies. |
Asked and answered.
Honestly, it's as though people just don't understand that you're allowed to take skills on linemen and that linemen don't actually die every time they see the field. |
Explain it better? 
When is Kick better than Dodge on Line Elves? How many Dodgy line elves do you like before you select Kick? What happens if they skill up and get stats or doubles? Do you just not really ever build line elves and plow all the SPP into Wardancers and Catchers? As you said yourself, Line Elves are not tissue paper, is a blodge elf or a kick dodge elf better at 16 spp?
Here's the evaluation Rat Salat made: The opportunity cost of forgoing Dodge for Kick (and delaying all subsequent survival and development) for any given lino is greater than forgoing any skill that could have taken by the Wardancer at this point in his career. Kick was chosen because it's a team skill that you always use and almost every other choice involves rolling a dice that can have bad outcomes or just aren't utilized very often at all.
It's not that nuts. It's not going to get him killed like Pass Block  |
|
|
C3I2
Joined: Feb 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 08:12 |
|
Its an ok choice, but I would have gone Pro. |
|
|
El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 10:36 |
|
Ok, so I do understand it correctly that a WD with +MA, MB, Side-Step and some other useful skills like Tackle and Strip Ball (or even better Frenzy) has taken Kick as Legendary skill.
That is indeed Epic, stuff for legends. Sure there is Dolfar Longstride, which is the only star player with kick. I didn't hear about him until I started playing Wood Elves and looking through their inducements, yes he is that good .
So yeah, Sure Hands, Fend, Pro (mainly for blocking reasons if you have frenzy) and pass block would be the skills I would consider in that order. |
_________________
By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
|
Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 10:58 |
|
Really interesting discussion. I like both points of view. Taking the opportunity costs for Kick on a lineman into account is not a bad thing, especially when you dream of developing at least some linemen into strong elf players - and don't have infinite time for games, like me, for example. 
Of course I totally agree that another skill would have made that great player even better. And I could for sure easily point to several games where Brumbas, who is basically an elf skill-wise, has changed the result of the game in my favor - even though I know you can't compare dwarves and elves easily, neither on team nor player level.
It seems to boil down to what makes the team stronger and what time horizon we're talking about (game- and real-time-wise). And I don't think that question can be answered once and for all. |
_________________
.
 |
|
JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 11:28 |
|
It's amazing how many people can't see the wood for the tree. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
|
Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 11:31 |
|
This is not that sttrange skill pick, move along! |
|
|
Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 12:22 |
|
I would have considered it strange, so this thread has been educating. Thanks for that! |
_________________
.
|
|
garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 15:32 |
|
| Rat_Salat wrote: | Oh and Licker, I do what I can to keep those wardancers alive, but hardly to the point you infer. His legend game was a cakewalk, but take a look at the game before...
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3665507
3 leaps, GFI's, desperation plays trying to win the game... |
Sure Feet then would have made him closer to perfect as clearly you do gfis. |
_________________
“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
|
happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 15:46 |
|
| garyt1 wrote: | | Rat_Salat wrote: | Oh and Licker, I do what I can to keep those wardancers alive, but hardly to the point you infer. His legend game was a cakewalk, but take a look at the game before...
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?op=view&id=3665507
3 leaps, GFI's, desperation plays trying to win the game... |
Sure Feet then would have made him closer to perfect as clearly you do gfis. |
Or if you watch that game and count how many turns that WD ties up a sink trying to make it hard for him to dodge away... I mean, the sinks failed to dodge away anyway and the game ends a tie, but you have to wonder if DT or SF would have helped push that game over the edge with some other options (for example, not going for the ball but staying upright and tagging the skink who could score with your SS/tackle/DT WD).
But what do I know! I already rested my case after Jimmy's testimony. |
_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
 |
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 16:05 |
|
| happygrue wrote: | | Or if you watch that game and count how many turns that WD ties up a sink trying to make it hard for him to dodge away... I mean, the sinks failed to dodge away anyway and the game ends a tie, but you have to wonder if DT or SF would have helped push that game over the edge with some other options (for example, not going for the ball but staying upright and tagging the skink who could score with your SS/tackle/DT WD). |
Pretty good point grue. I'll rebut with a few of my own.
1) Basing skinks and other stunty players is a fine use of this Wardancer, and diving tackle would make him even better at it.... however Wood Elves with tackle/mighty blow wardancers tend to own Lizardmen fairly hard, and adding diving tackle to the mix seems like overkill.
2) I try to tune my elf teams to beat bashers. Diving tackle is less useful against orcs, and many bash players tend to forget that one elf blitzer with mighty blow will probably remove 1-2 of their AV8/9 players if he blitzes every turn. This is also why I have a treeman, who is nearly useless against other elves.
3) Adding diving tackle to a fast team with 3 mighty blow pretty much assures I won't be getting any elfball, stunty, or lizard games until that wardancer dies. Obvious anti-elf teams don't get as many choices in gamefinder.
With all of that said, I've heard enough good arguments about diving tackle that I may well consider it as a 4th skill on a different wardancer. Previously I didn't really consider it a serious option on an AV7 player, but perhaps there is a decent argument for it over wrestle.
I still think wrestle is a better choice for a less-impressive physical specimen, if only because it nearly assures a shorter career and new canvas to build on. I also think that sure hands would have worked well as a superstar skill (over mighty blow). The biggest reason why I did not pick sure hands is that I do not want to use this player to field balls in the backfield or sit in the opponent's half stalling when he could be hitting people. While at present time there is a secondary blitz option on the team, that will likely change. |
Last edited by Rat_Salat on %b %26, %2015 - %16:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
|
happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
|
| Posted:
Mar 26, 2015 - 16:14 |
|
Fair reasons. Wrestle or DT or Sure Feet (he is the best one turner on your team right now?) are all great options, but if you are gearing toward facing a different type of opponent then maybe you want your focus.
I always build all my teams to try to face all opponents, so I try to think of skills with that in mind. Does my team stand a chance against elves? Is it going to last against bash? I agree that DT is not going to be as useful against bash... except on those games where your WD chases down the breakaway ballcarrier and needs to stop him from running it in. Keep your eyes peeled for that one. |
_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
|
|
|
|
| |
Exempt teams
Search
