Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
 Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 20:15 |
 
|
| Purplegoo wrote: | | Blocking early with a big guy is not optimal play, so don't do that. He's important passively. |
Well the problem is, if you've invested that much TV in your big man, you're probably lacking in other areas vs your opponent... like having a heck of a lot less guard. Against a highly tv-efficient bashy roster like Orcs or Dwarves, you're behind the TV curve to start with.
Against bloaty rosters (elves, mainly), the ogre probably isn't going to do a lot more than take a 3D block on turn 1 and then stand around as a cage corner.
Now if you're playing skaven? Okay now we're talking. Ogres can make some nice hay against line rats and other X/3/3/7 players (hobgoblins, thralls, norse). Of course beating vampires and tweeners has never really been humans's problem, it's ST4 bash at mid-high TV... and I don't really see how spotting them 90-150tv in extra bash skills by taking an ogre is going to work out in our favor. |
|
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 20:16 |
|
Iam still waiting for my Ag5 thrower with Accurate/StrongArm and Safe throw.
2+ with reroll to Long Bomb with 2+ to negate INT.
Had a league thrower like that but it is still elusive for the Buccaneers. |
_________________
Comish of the:  |
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 20:21 |
|
| Rat_Salat wrote: |
Well the problem is, if you've invested that much TV in your big man, you're probably lacking in other areas vs your opponent... like having a heck of a lot less guard.
|
What?
If you do not field a ogre you can only have 4 guard on normal roles. You can only have 4 MB/PO on normal rolls.
The Ogre provides that 5th guard and the 5th PO/MB on the roster and he can perform 3DB's with ease and Blitz on 3db a lot of times.
Dropping the ogre really dampens your firepower on the roster. |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 20:23 |
|
| mrt1212 wrote: | | I think there's always room on a roster for a Wrackle Thrower. |
You know, this actually isn't that bad of an idea. I do want wrackle somewhere, and maybe the thrower isn't the worst place for it.
| PainState wrote: | everything humans do is a 1 in 9 fail chance, EVERYTHING.
of course that is why the +STATS are so important, to break the cycle of 1 in 9. Same goes for Diving Catch on catchers and accurate or Strong Arm on throwers, those give you AG4 on those actions, out to AG5 on a thrower with accurate/StrongArm. |
Well, yeah. I think if I was gifted an AG4 catcher, I could probably make a nice run with humans. Unfortunately, once that bastard is dead you're stuck at square one. God could this team ever use the DE Renegade and troll from Chaos Pact.
But again, I don't think I'm going to try and make up for AG3 by taking skills like strong arm, diving catch, or accurate. I just don't think spending a lot of skills trying to build elves on a 6/3/3/8 chassis is going to work out very well.
I'm going to give humans a go, but I'm going to keep the TV pretty trim. I could be wrong, but it seems like Humans are a completely lost cause above 1500tv. At that point you are going to be too bashy to get any games against agility opponents, and simply outclassed by the killstack or guardspam of the bash teams. Call it sweetspotting if you like, but I'm going to give humans a shot at 1250-1500tv, try to limit the picking and see what happens.
| PainState wrote: | | The Ogre provides that 5th guard and the 5th PO/MB on the roster and he can perform 3DB's with ease and Blitz on 3db a lot of times. |
I don't really think I'm going to need more than 4 mighty blow and 1 piling on. Obviously I would like as much guard as I can get, but hopefully that will come from my linemen. |
|
|
Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 20:27 |
|
| Catalyst32 wrote: |
And I agree the Human Catcher should have been tweaked in CRP. If nothing else they should have at least been made AV8 with no other changes. |
I never understand how this is rationalized when elves are portrayed in nearly all fantasy settings as smaller than humans yet all but wood elf catchers are ST3 & humans get ST2? Nonsense, as humans are also portrayed in fluff as dominant BB teams. Catchers should be ST3. Also, if you look at the modern NFL receiver they are quite large. Discuss... |
_________________
"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
|
JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 20:32 |
|
Discussion: no real discussion makes sense in a game where the scrimmage is dominated by mummies and minotaurs.
 |
_________________
 |
|
Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 20:43 |
|
Adding to what Purplegoo said and what I have said.
Ogre has ST5 and with just Guard he is very helpful in the scrum against bash.
But he is also important in establishing your POWER vs Elves and Skaven etc.
The Baller teams typically don't have something to counter him.
And he is an effective anchor to keeping your screen in tact against Bash.
Remember what I said about the Catcher. Ogre and Thrower only really needing 1 skill.
They are already perfect for their role on the team with just 6spps.
So unless they gave the ball you do not need to protect them very much.
Sure... you can develop them into bigger roles with more skills.
But they are excellent at helping the team right out of the Box.
If one dies a Rookie is almost as good and after an easy 6spps they are perfect again.
Remember that with most other races they have specific strengths and weaknesses.
But with Humans they have to be ready to play EVERY STYLE.
They need to be built for flexibility. Good at everything. Great at nothing.
I often find my Humans switch a few times each drive from basher to baller and back again.
1 turn I want to man mark. The next I want to be back 1 square.
Being able to SWITCH tactics is a Human Advantage if done at the right times.
Since you have played lots of Skaven I can see why you like the idea of a Catcher carrier.
You might want to try a 3 or 4 Catcher build where you focus on using the Catchers heavily.
You might want to watch Diddyboy play his Boys in Hoods.
He really utilizes his Catchers. |
|
|
Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 21:07 |
|
| JanMattys wrote: | Discussion: no real discussion makes sense in a game where the scrimmage is dominated by mummies and minotaurs.
|
Alright, I'll give you that Jan, but seriously why are human catchers ST2  |
_________________
"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
|
mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 21:39 |
|
| PainState wrote: | Iam still waiting for my Ag5 thrower with Accurate/StrongArm and Safe throw.
2+ with reroll to Long Bomb with 2+ to negate INT.
Had a league thrower like that but it is still elusive for the Buccaneers. |
I had an AG5 Human Thrower with Accurate and got to use Runes on him once. It was magic. Wound up he Died on a 1d6 block with Both down as the result, and well, not having wrestle or block sealed is fate. |
|
|
mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 21:41 |
|
| Nightbird wrote: | | Catalyst32 wrote: |
And I agree the Human Catcher should have been tweaked in CRP. If nothing else they should have at least been made AV8 with no other changes. |
I never understand how this is rationalized when elves are portrayed in nearly all fantasy settings as smaller than humans yet all but wood elf catchers are ST3 & humans get ST2? Nonsense, as humans are also portrayed in fluff as dominant BB teams. Catchers should be ST3. Also, if you look at the modern NFL receiver they are quite large. Discuss... |
If you try to rationalize and reconcile BB Fluff based on our corporeal world you'd run out of days on this planet before you run out of incongruities in the Fluff. |
|
|
Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 21:52 |
|
| Catalyst32 wrote: | Adding to what Purplegoo said and what I have said.
Ogre has ST5 and with just Guard he is very helpful in the scrum against bash.
But he is also important in establishing your POWER vs Elves and Skaven etc. |
Again, I don't think humans are going to need help beating elves. While I am not an experienced human player, I am most certainly very versed in playing elves against them. In such matches, the Ogre is quite literally the least of my problems... an extra 2 foulers off the bench would surely be a better option.
As for the Ogre vs bash, I'm still not hearing how investing 100-150 extra tv into an ogre is going to help you beat bash teams. I just don't understand how spotting Dwarves/Orcs/Chaos 5-7 more strength skills is going to be in any way offset by one ST5 loner. Please explain. |
|
|
happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 22:01 |
|
| Rat_Salat wrote: | | As for the Ogre vs bash, I'm still not hearing how investing 100-150 extra tv into an ogre is going to help you beat bash teams. I just don't understand how spotting Dwarves/Orcs/Chaos 5-7 more strength skills is going to be in any way offset by one ST5 loner. Please explain. |
Because you beat those teams, rather than tie them, but NOT letting them grind their cage all the way down to the endzone. And 4 blitzers is a bit weak against 4 orc blitzers, 4 BOBs and a troll. You are out strengthed, out guarded, out MB and out kitchen sinked. but at least you can get catchers! Oh wait, those also don't help slow down an orc cage at all. So a Guard/SF ogre can be a big asset there. These teams are slow and if they can't bring the big man down at the right time they might have to start going around. And any time you can get them "go around" that is your only real hope of getting the cage to fall apart. In short, you're trying to make them roll dice (like dodges, GFI or giving you a shot on the ball) to score, rather than their usual plan of just merely killing you to score.
If their bash fails and you still have enough menz left to wall up you don't need the ogre, but as I'm sure you find when you start playing humans against bash that is not plan A! Similar logic applies to the CD/Chaos - they are easier to attack because they are not all AV 9 but they also have nastier tools to use against you. |
_________________
Come join us in #metabox, the Discord channel for HLP, ARR, and E.L.F. in the box!
 |
|
Balle2000
Joined: Sep 25, 2008
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 22:11 |
|
| mrt1212 wrote: | | incongruities in the Fluff. |
is this the first time these words have ever been uttered?
edit: on a second thought
 |
_________________
Join the SWL
Get your team bios here!
Putting the romantic in necromantic since 2010
Last edited by Balle2000 on %b %02, %2015 - %22:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 22:14 |
|
| JanMattys wrote: | Discussion: no real discussion makes sense in a game where the scrimmage is dominated by mummies and minotaurs.
|
Well, that is why one of the buffs which is totally ignored by the vast majority of "human" coaches is that Dauntless is no longer a double roll.
All lino's at 16+ or 31+ should strive to take some dauntless. Same goes for the blitzers, if you can work it in.
@rat
You want ag4 catchers: run 3 of them all the time and keep recycling them, sacrificing the SPP from scoring on the blitzers and then viola, you have one or two. |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
|
| Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 22:18 |
|
| Rat_Salat wrote: |
Again, I don't think humans are going to need help beating elves. |
Sir, your logic on this subject is all over the board. Which of course is why you titled your thread the way you did.
Here is the reality of the day.
Once you build up Humans to the mystical 1500-1600 TV range you will have skills that Elves will not want to play against, it will become harder and harder to find elf matches.
You will start ignoring the true bash match ups and all you are left then to play is tweener teams who themselves are in the same boat.
SO
You will have to face T/MB/PO and DP and all kinds of nasty from them.
Just suck it up man, make the team you want, no grooming, no picking, stick them out on GF and take on all challengers.
It is the only way to approach this thing man. |
_________________
Comish of the: |
|
|
|
| |
Blackbox Teams
Search
