mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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 Posted:
Apr 02, 2015 - 22:20 |
 
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I think whoever mentioned Lizardmen as an ideal case for the Human Ogre is onto something - Lizardmen with their 6 Sauri and 1 Krox can potentially tie up every player on a Human team so that there is at least equal strength on every block. Sure, you have to have something go really sideways for this nightmare scenario to happen but I think it can justify a to an extent. With Blanket ST3 against 4+ ST4, you're going to get some players locked up into 1v1 matchups they either dodge on a 3+ from, throw -2d6 blocks against, or call over 2 assisters to get the 2d6 block.
I think the justification for the Ogre might come down to this: Blockee Strength - Blocker Strength + Assists > 1 before most people are willing to throw the block. An Ogre is a honey pot almost in that he attracts more attention than he's worth.
Rat, you should try to run two Human teams and try both ways out and see if you can find a use for him. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %02, %2015 - %22:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 02, 2015 - 22:23 |
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Of course all of this is coming from a coach who thinks the ideal TV range for a human team is in the 2400TV+ range.
Peaked out one time just shy of 2800.
Iam going to break the 3000TV ceiling on day. I will. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 02, 2015 - 22:24 |
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| Balle2000 wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | incongruities in the Fluff. |
is this the first time these words have ever been uttered?
edit: on a second thought
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+1  Ferpect! |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Apr 02, 2015 - 23:35 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | An Ogre is a honey pot almost in that he attracts more attention than he's worth. |
That is a great way to put it.
An opponent will need to either devote 2 or 3 players to taking on your Ogre... which leaves you a 1 or 2 man advantage elsewhere.
OR the opponent will leave only 1 player to deal with the Ogre... which means advantage Ogre. Here near the end of each turn (after you have done safe things and important things) you get a shot to knock an opponents player out of the game. It will usually be a 2 Dice Block and could easily be a 3 Dice Block. ALL GAME LONG. Not just 1 turn.
The Ogre is a piece that must be dealt with somehow by your opponent. No matter what team he has or how he uses them the Ogre is a piece he must make a decision about. And by seeing what decision he makes you gain insight into his overall strategy.
That BIG Guard is worth every penny in most games. Your Blitzers need his GUARD so they can make their hits.
And he can become more useful with additional skills.
Break Tackle... there goes that play of man marking him.
Piling On... he starts removing more pieces.
Stand Firm... he holds the center better.
But that ST5 Guard... that is so useful. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 02, 2015 - 23:57 |
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Hell, even Grab can be useful for setting up chain pushes. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Apr 03, 2015 - 00:21 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | Hell, even Grab can be useful for setting up chain pushes. |
A 3DB Grab does wonders for setting up OTS attempts.
What? You guys again? yes, ok.
Yes, he might just bonehead on you. That is why you use your noggin to set up in such a way that you can still do a traditional blitz to get the first push moving.
And yes I admit sometimes the big lug just wants to KILL and rolls the triple Kapow and smashes the poor pixel player into atoms.
You just shrug at that and feel content that the OTS was such long odds to start with that you are satisfied with dead pixels. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 03, 2015 - 00:42 |
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Not just OTS scores but in general too. the positioning has to be just right but blocking with the ogre, putting his victim in a square next to the ogre so that a subsequent block can chain push the Guard Grab Standfirm Ogre into a position that might be even more beneficial than where he stands at the end of his block... |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Apr 03, 2015 - 00:55 |
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Holy moly. And i thought team building was about buying 11 players as assists for the DP you are building.
This is a great read though. Im sensing this pain that normally occurs when it is undeniable clear that i really should learn something... 
Added to the link graveyard. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 03, 2015 - 01:02 |
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With all that said...you don't have to take an Ogre, Rat, you truly don't.
*Nearby Ogre mutters something into mrt1212's ear*
Actually, yes, yes you do. Post haste. Chop Chop. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 03, 2015 - 08:31 |
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Just to illustrate my point, let's take a look at Purplechest's ranked humans. His Huntsmen are a nice example of how I think humans may be able to live in the middle TV range of ranked without too much trouble. He does use a thrower, and his previous one did have accurate and 9 completions. He's got the elusive +AG catcher, and of course those Blitzers built on the Mighty Blow/Guard/Tackle trinity.
On the flip side, it's pretty telling to note that this is a 1560tv team, yet only fields 11 players. The blitzers are hardly legends, there's no guard on the linemen, and certainly no ogre, although he has had a couple in the past. In fact, the only doubles used on the present squad are on the 150tv +ST, mighty blow lineman. I think it's really hard to argue that this team is going to be improved by adding an ogre and pushing TV over 1700. PC clearly agrees, he has 340k banked and 11 players, yet declined the ogre purchase.
Match selection is what you would expect. You've got one orc game in 35, a self-handicap against a lesser CR coach. One chaos game very early in the team's development, and a draw against nurgle in a game he probably expected to win. Overall, a 27-5-3 record against mainly tweener competition. Seven skaven teams, going 5-0-2. 4-0-1 in five games against undead, and a healthy mix of teams for the rest of the games. Obviously PC wisely picked around ST4 bash, but it looks like he had a lot of fun and varied choices of whom to play against.
Notably, he only got two games against elves, despite twice declining piling on for lesser blitzer skills (Fend and Dauntless). This on a team with no dirty player. Unless PC picked around elves, which I highly doubt, he didn't have much luck finding elf games, which is pretty much what I would expect. I actually would probably not duck this team with elves, as I would generally expect my 1-2 mighty blow elf teams to keep the casualty numbers even enough against his 4-mighty blow humans. Obviously if forced to kick to this team, I could get nuffled by 4xMB blocks on turn one... but he's made things inviting enough that I would probably take the game. Swap either of those blitzers for a tacklepomber though, and he can forget it. This isn't a coincidence decision by a legend coach looking for entertaining ranked games... he declined piling on to self-handicap his side and increase his variety of opponents.
PC is the 3rd ranked Human coach on the site, playing the majority of those games with this team. He's also the only one of the top 5 human coaches who doesn't use an ogre, which is kind of interesting I suppose.
I've decided to try humans with and without an ogre and see how I like it. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 03, 2015 - 09:03 |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Apr 03, 2015 - 09:20 |
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PC has used 2 Ogres on that team in 27 of those games.
16 games for 1 Ogre and 11 games for the other. Both DIED.
He only played 8 games without an Ogre.
That team doesn't tell the story you think it does.
I wonder...
How many of the 27 games he WON had an Ogre on the Pitch?
How many of the 5 games he tied and 3 games he lost had an Ogre? |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 03, 2015 - 09:30 |
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Lol, let the games begin! |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Apr 03, 2015 - 09:44 |
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100% no Ogre is best. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Apr 03, 2015 - 12:38 |
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100% Ogre is best. |
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