Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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Apr 11, 2015 - 01:29 |
 
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Well in normal play, human's are all about have more than one option. With a thrower, he adds another layer of ball delivery to your AG blitzers, or catcher, so they become a plan B or C. This means you could have 3 serious scoring threats moving on three different vectors, with the ball safely in the pocket before moving forward to handoff (or even pass if the situation is that desperate). If you ditch your catcher and continue to avoid a thrower, you cut down your options to 1 attack vector, and your puny humans become much easier to anticipate and stop.
But honestly, looking at the quality of games you are agreeing to so far with your team I wouldn't worry about trying to optimise your team build. It's a pretty small influencer on your game outcomes. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 11, 2015 - 01:33 |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 11, 2015 - 01:45 |
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I won't comment on samba, never used it, I don't need to.
The odds of making 2 2+ rolls with a rr is 81%, it's certainly not 92%, but I have no idea how that program is doing its calculations or what other assumptions it might be making. I don't care to discuss it either, it's not that important to the point made anyway.
The thrower is great to start with because he comes with a skill that you otherwise have to wait to add to another player. MA6 isn't a significant problem since his job isn't usually to score himself, but rather to get the ball to which ever player is actually going to score. By hand off usually, but since he also has pass for 'free' making a pass from one out is better than trying a gfi (again, rrs nonwithstanding, we are assuming you don't have any rrs, or don't want to use them because you need to save them for other actions).
Once you have an AG4 catcher or blitzer you may not need or want a thrower anymore, that's fine, but he's the same cost as a lineman with sure hands, has pass, and access to P skills. So for the extra 20k I think he's a player who's worth taking even if you treat him as a lineman for the most part. The only real difference is that you probably don't take guard on doubles, but there's nothing really saying you can't.
Would you take a lineman with sure hands, pass, block and leader? Well you wouldn't ever build one like that, but you're getting that player with 16spp, not 51! And a TV rebate as well if you're worried about TV management. Frankly I wouldn't worry about it, especially if you're not using an Ogre, but if you have a TV range in mind you want to sweet spot at then sure, you design the team with the skills you want and just start firing anyone who deviates from that plan.
I don't think that's a good way to play the game myself, but if you do then that's fine, however, you're kind of limiting the advice you would get because you've already predetermined 'optimal' for that build. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Apr 11, 2015 - 02:00 |
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| Rat_Salat wrote: | | Okay. Explain how a thrower is going to help a team with 4 MA7 guys (two with 4AG), and a MA8 dude. I don't claim to know it all, so explain yourself. |
Now that you *have* two +ag blitzers you have a good case for not using a thrower. The counter argument is that every player with S access you have running the ball is one that you don't have using S access to win you games with guard and so on. But sure, you have a great blitzer ball carrier now. Catcher can still get great use with wrestle as a stripper.
The larger point here is that if you had started with a thrower and scored with a thrower and rolled the same skill up you would now have a +ag thrower and a +ag bltizer and a catcher. Not that you can plan such things, but surely comparing a +ag thrower to a +ag blitzer you can see some interesting options for the team that weren't there before?
I'm mixed on throwers myself, but I think they are a GREAT starting value. If you roll up a better ballcarrier later so be it, but they are quite good out of the box IMO. |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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Apr 11, 2015 - 02:08 |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Apr 11, 2015 - 02:12 |
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You can get throwers to 16 SPP relatively quickly by virtue of the Pass skill during garbage time and even more so now that you have some AG4 There are quite a few builds for throwers on defense but I've thought that putting Wrestle and Tackle is a good use of them. I do that with Skaven Throwers when I remember to. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 11, 2015 - 02:28 |
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Yes, skaven throwers are also great, especially early. Sure hands is just such a great skill for rookie teams as it saves them rerolls as they don't have a full compliment of block/dodge/whatever, but it's also great on mid-high TV teams for that reason, but also as strip ball insurance.
Gutters are one of the best players in the game, but you often do not want 4 of them on the pitch at the same time (let alone be able to keep 4 of them on the pitch...). You can use them as the threats they are knowing you still have an MA7 with pass in back to get the ball up field when it's time.
But honestly alot of your 'issues' appear to me to be fully related to how you try to work with your rule of 5. You don't seem to want a 'complete' roster, you prefer a preplanned 'stacked' roster. So you wind up making assumptions about how these 'ancillary' players are unnecessary.
Well to be fair, they are not necessary, however, they provide more options and by extension likely higher win rates, than you may realize. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Apr 11, 2015 - 02:53 |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 11, 2015 - 03:33 |
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I've created a new thread just for you licker, so you don't have to continue this "rule of 5"
discussion in every thread I post in. |
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nufflehatesme
Joined: Nov 02, 2011
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Apr 11, 2015 - 03:54 |
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the throwers value comes in a block leader thrower being cheaper than a block lineman and reroll. from there you can keep building him like a linemen (kick, tackle, etc). if he rolls stats, u instantly have an awesome ball carrier with sure hands and pass.
throwers also help with one turn scores, against strip ballers, and just add another avenue of attack (i build my genuine throwers with dumpoff eventually for even more options)
worth the tv every time to see how they skill, as leader means you can save tv if its an issue. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 11, 2015 - 04:22 |
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| koadah wrote: | Is the rule of 5 even relevant outside the Box?
If you are not playing CPOMBers every game why does it matter? |
AV7 elves don't care about claw, and tacklepomb isn't rare in ranked at all. Unless you're planning on retiring your team at 1750tv or elfball the rest of your life, you're going to see tacklepomb, which is effectively clawpomb against elves. |
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jori3641
Joined: Jan 17, 2015
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Apr 11, 2015 - 09:53 |
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| licker wrote: |
The odds of making 2 2+ rolls with a rr is 81%, it's certainly not 92%, but I have no idea how that program is doing its calculations or what other assumptions it might be making. I don't care to discuss it either, it's not that important to the point made anyway. |
I am a bit sorry to bring it up, since you din´t care to discuss it, but you are wrong. It is 92%
To succeed with 2 2+ rolls with a reroll you either:
1. Succeed with both rolls without rerolls. The probability of that is 5/6*5/6=69.4%.
2. Failing the first roll, but succeeding with the reroll and succeeding with the second roll. The probability of that is 1/6*5/6*5/6=11.6%
3. Succeeding with the first roll, failing the second first, but succeeding with the reroll. The probability of that is 5/6*1/6*5/6=11.6%
69.4+11.6+11.6=92.6%
Please carry on with the rest of the discussion  |
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Oly1987
Joined: Oct 02, 2006
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Apr 11, 2015 - 12:00 |
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I find throwers are great at the start and are good toolbox characters if nothing else. Now I haven't the best info when it comes to TV management around the 1500-1600 mark (more 1200-1300 and 1800+ is my territory).
Throwers start with sure hands which is great for scooping up the ball as it gives you a *free* reroll. People are meh about pass but im sure you'd rather have it than not especially when youve been hard pressed and need to make a less than optimal play (happens to the best coaches). They are very cost effective to start with and although they can sometimes feel a bit bloaty after a few skills they have a lot of handy skills they can take.
Normal essentials
Block/Wrestle: depends if he's built to carry it or to quickly get it to another player. I can see the benefit in wrestle for a sweeper.
Leader: 20k RR? yes please
Kick: Never underestimate the ability to have greater control over your kick.
Those 3 are the Thrower's trinity I'd say you can go further
normal 'others'
Accurate: call it a 3 square GFI to handoff with a single 2+ with a RR? moves the ball faster and with much more reliabilty
KOR: Worried about that ma6? how about 3 free squares of movement for those deep kick offs
Tackle: Cos it helps with sweeping.
I could go onto more skills but that'll do for now.
Doubles
Now for doubles you have 2 or 3 choices really
Dodge: better for carrying and getting out of trouble to a degree (1/9 fail). blodge/sh makes for a strong carrier (and has more ST than the Catcher)
Strong Arm : HUMANS PASSING?! OMG WTF KILLITWITHFIRE.......ahem. so you have ag4 blitzers and a catcher.... why not give yourself an extra option. Humans love having multiple routes to the endzone. Thats their game. 2+ short pass and 3+ long pass with RR (assuming you have accurate). And this is deffo worth a shout if he rolls a golden +AG.
Guard: Outsiders choice but with only 4 or 5 normal access to S the extra guard is nice, especially if your treating him more like a lineman.
Stats
Humans love stats! and especially positionals and the thrower is no expection.
+MA: Now you have yourself a ma7 runner. Nice. Also allows you to move around the field better to make those quick passes and handoffs if you dont want to score with him.
+ST: ST4 BC! I personally like this one as I have one. getting the ball off him is much more difficult and its also more ST to throw around on defence.
+AG: *Choir of Angels* An Elf thrower on a team that can bash AND dash! 2+ pickups, much better passing game (ok so receiving then becomes the issue but whatever). and just all around godliness.
only one I'd skip is +AV. Not much place on a human team for extra armour.
Final Note
You have 2 +AG blitzers which is great but you cant really afford to give up that precious ST access carrying the ball all the time. You want someone to hold onto it until your ready to score, handoff/pass score. Im also not a massive fan of Catcher/Runners. Yes ma8 and easy blodge/SH is nice but you cant overlook ST2 AV7. He is a target. Saying that a ST3 catcher could render a thrower pretty moot as a BC. But then he has a lot more to offer than just moving the ball. kicker, leader, sweeper..... Throwers have a lot to offer. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 11, 2015 - 16:10 |
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Well said Oly. Some good points in there. |
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Oly1987
Joined: Oct 02, 2006
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Apr 11, 2015 - 16:52 |
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another reason the built in RR's of a thrower are useful is that to start with at least you want to be scoring with your blitzers to get them skilled, having the built in RR for the pickup and sometimes the pass leaves your team RR free for your blitzers 2/3+ catch |
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