| Poll |
| What do you get a High Elf thrower who rolls doubles after getting strong arm? |
| Guard |
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20% |
[ 8 ] |
| Mighty Blow |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
| Stand Firm |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Piling On |
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20% |
[ 8 ] |
| Block |
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17% |
[ 7 ] |
| Something Else |
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35% |
[ 14 ] |
| Pie! |
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5% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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 Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:22 |
 
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right, but why take leap on AG6?
of course if you have leap on AG5 and get another AG feel free to skip it |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:31 |
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Because one 2+ leap can avoid two 3+ dodges, assuming 3 tacklezones and AG6. Throw in the 3+ pickup, two easy dodges out, and your play isn't really that likely.
Now, 2+ leap, 3+ pickup, 2+ dodge, 2+ dodge? All day. This doesn't even take into account jumping over the LOS on a blitz, which is pretty much the best use of AG5 leap there is.
Going around that 7-man chaos LOS isn't as good as going over it. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:36 |
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Why assume that though?
I can also make assumptions that make leap meaningless.
If you take AG6 you don't need leap. It's pretty easy to understand. That doesn't mean AG5 leap isn't sometimes better, but it also doesn't mean that AG6 isn't also sometimes better. |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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Apr 24, 2015 - 07:27 |
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| licker wrote: | Why assume that though?
If you take AG6 you don't need leap. It's pretty easy to understand. That doesn't mean AG5 leap isn't sometimes better, but it also doesn't mean that AG6 isn't also sometimes better. |
Leap is still a helpful skill because it allows you to do things you couldn't otherwise do. I have a 6 Ag leaper and it's come in handy from time to time.
I won a black box brawl that I should have lose because my witch was able to catch the ball in TZs, leap over the blockade and dodge away for the score... I would not have been able to do it with just 6 ag alone.
It also comes in really handy in combination with frenzy for surfing people.
Of course there is some redundancy there, so not a perfect combination.
| Rat_Salat wrote: |
Fantastic example of when taking a stat instead of a core skill, then following up with a sub-par skill choice has really hurt the team. (I'm only agreeing with you here footballolb16)
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I don't regret the stat increase because 6 ag is useful for pickups in TZs, or bad weather + TZs, and for those long passes... The issue was prematurely taking safe throw.
The reason I took safe throw was pretty much because at the time, I was using the quarterback type strategy where I'd hang deep, kill some time, and then bomb it... Not the best strategy but that's what I had been using and I figured I could make that more effective if I didn't have to worry about INTs... That was a development error on my part.
| Rat_Salat wrote: |
+AG +AG Dodge Block Leap also costs 230tv
+AG Sure Hands Dodge Block Leap is only 210tv
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When you compare those two players, probably the better one has SH, because it saves RRs, especially deep in your own end; however, for those key moments when you want to scoop in and pass out, 6 ag can be very handy... The lack of auto-RR can hurt though... It's a close call though.
In a pinch where you need a quick 2 turn TD and are under-manned, that extra AG comes in handy.
My thrower's development will probably end up with Block, Dodge, Sure Hands (if he lives to legend)... So, missing out on Leap for that 2nd +Ag, basically... Which to me is a decent trade-off... While leap can be super handy, +Ag has many benefits, a lot of which are extra beneficial on a thrower.
Probably the most logical order would be: Dodge, Sure Hands, Block... That player needs to make it to Legend to be 'fully useful' |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 08:39 |
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Guard would have been the right choice: it's a Lineman with the Pass skill. Since you've taken passing skills (not the best move), Dodge if you're attached. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 13:18 |
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AG5 + accurate is ALWAYS better than AG6 when Throwing
Quick pass: both 2+
Short pass: both 2+
Long pass: AG5 2+, AG6 fumble with 1-2!!!
Long bomb: AG5 fumble at 1-2, accurate on 3+. AG6 fumble with 1-2-3!!!
Same things for Long pass with 1 TZ or Short pass with Two TZ, or Quick pass with 3 TZ
AG5 without accurate is IDENTICAL to AG6 while passing
Quick pass: both 2+
Short pass: both 2+
Long pass: both fumble at 1-2, accurate at 3+
Long bomb: both fumble at 1-2-3, accurate at 4
AG6 add NOTHING to passing ability, respect to AG5, NEVER
AG6 can be better at dodging or pickup in more than 1 TZ, not making pass... Accurate is always better than AG6 when passing |
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CanvasBack
Joined: Jan 15, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 14:01 |
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Wow, we were experiencing quite a bit of drift there and now we ran this all the way off topic... |
_________________
"When you have shot and killed a man you have in some measure clarified your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or worse you have acted decisively. In a way, the next move is up to him." R.A. Lafferty |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 17:32 |
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Doesn't AG6 help when passing out of tackle zones? Probably not any more than accurate, but meh, accurate is a dumb skill to take anyway on a guy with AG5.
You take accurate on your guy who is AG4, and then cry a little because you took it when you roll the next AG. 
Or, you don't take any passing skills other than what comes on the chassis because there is always a better skill to take anyway. Unless you are building a fluff thrower, then I don't really care what you take because it doesn't really matter, and the choices are even more obvious.
As to leap on AG6... it's nice, sometimes, but its a skill slot that could have gone to something else. Like sure hands.
I would never take leap on an AG6 personally, and I would never add AG6 to an AG5 leaper (WD and Slann nonwithstanding). So my builds would be identical, just swapping AG for leap.
Leap is fine and fun, but honestly, I think you guys might be a bit too enamored with it. You like to have it somewhere on your AG4 teams, but you don't need to stick it on every +AG elf you get. It's not a default skill and elfs should not play like slann anyway. |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 21:46 |
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For most players, leap is not a skill you use too often... But it can be a game breaker when you do use it... It allows you to physically do something others cannot (not just improve the odds of something everyone can do)... That has value in and of itself... But after having played more games (since when I developed that thrower... LRB4 days), I would probably go about things differently. I still wouldn't reject the 6 ag though.
| Leilond wrote: |
Quick pass: both 2+
Short pass: both 2+
Long pass: AG5 2+, AG6 fumble with 1-2!!!
Long bomb: AG5 fumble at 1-2, accurate on 3+. AG6 fumble with 1-2-3!!!
Same things for Long pass with 1 TZ or Short pass with Two TZ, or Quick pass with 3 TZ
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Then it's a good thing I took safe throw  lol |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 21:55 |
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| licker wrote: | Doesn't AG6 help when passing out of tackle zones? Probably not any more than accurate, but meh, accurate is a dumb skill to take anyway on a guy with AG5.
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With accurate, a long pass is 2+, without accurate you fumble with 1 and 2, no matter your AG
It hardly depends on your game style. If you like to make wondefull 10 square passes, accurate IS A MUST, or your pass rolls will be 3+, with AG5, AG6 or AG8
It's a matter of style and fluff |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 22:01 |
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The only P skill that really matters if you want to throw it occasionally is Pass.
If you want to build a project team/player to take the lead in most spaces passed or something, then sure, you want all these other skills. Most plays though do not require them. That is most of your passes will be quick or short no matter the skills, so all of these extra skills are useless (except for pass to help with rerolls). |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 22:02 |
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Seems silly that 5 Ag + accurate should be better for passing than 6 Ag, but you're right... I looked over the rule book. They have the same rolls for success, but Accurate gives you a smaller fumble rate. That being said, hard to turn down +Ag  |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2015 - 21:30 |
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So while all this discussion has been taking place, I've managed to build up quite a thrower on my wood elves.
Here we have yet another example of why we don't take doubles or passing skills on elf throwers. Now that Chuck has rolled his second stat, he's only got one more skill left before the long push to legend. Since I've never actually had a thrower make it to legend, and there have only been three legendary wood elf throwers in ranked, it's pretty safe to assume his next skill will be his last, if he lives even that long.
So we have an 8/3/5/7 Pass, Sure Hands, Dodge guy and a tough decision between Block and Leap on his next skillup. +ST, +AG, +MA, a passing skill, or any double you can possibly suggest just won't be as good as either of the two G skills we could take.
It's also important to remember that although we've built a really cool player, we've now invested more TV in him than we did on our guard/mighty blow wardancer. Even with two doubles, the wardancer has 100k in skills, while the thrower has a 130k cost on top of his chassis, if we include the 20k we paid for pass.
This is a classic example of bloating your team by over-investing in a lineman chassis. I'm going to have fun with this thrower, on my wardancer project fluff team. I do this because it's fun, but I understand that it's not really optimal. The team would likely be better served by either not having a thrower at all, or having a cheap version with pass and sure hands. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2015 - 21:42 |
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I still disagree.
AG6 will be better than any other skill you could take. Who cares if he never takes block. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 25, 2015 - 22:16 |
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| licker wrote: | I still disagree.
AG6 will be better than any other skill you could take. Who cares if he never takes block. |
I had that player. He wasn't that great, and sure as hell wasn't worth 250tv. Frankie was a monster. So was Stretch, and Xerces, and Juliett. I could list another dozen blitzer chassis players, like Hector. I know my AG5 leap. It's better than AG6.
I mean, feel free to link your AG6 examples that worked if this isn't all just theorybowl and you're talking out of your butt. |
Last edited by Rat_Salat on %b %25, %2015 - %22:%Apr; edited 2 times in total |
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