Angmarred
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
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 Posted:
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:15 |
 
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So I decided to try out Skaven and I'm having a blast so far (only 2 games, lol). After my 2nd match I earned a bunch of skills (the first skills on the entire team). Here's the team.
Blitzer rolled normal, took Mighty Blow, that seemed easy.
Rat Ogre rolled normal, and I'm not sure. Stand Firm or Juggernaut seem to mesh well with Wild Animal and Frenzy respectively. I'd obviously rather get a double for Block and skip Juggernaut. The other option is Guard, which is just a generally useful skill. What do people think? Stand Firm or Guard?
Gutter Runner rolled a non-double 10. On a rookie team, skills would be nice, but I'm tempted to just take the +MA and turn him into a one-turner. GR skill up fast so I can catch up soon, but the opportunity to get a one-turn specialist on the first skill roll is much more rare. What do people think? +MA or Block/Wrestle? |
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heretek
Joined: Mar 10, 2015
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Apr 24, 2015 - 01:26 |
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I think building a specific one-turner is a bit of a trap, I don't personally do it. That said, having +MA is not in and of itself a bad thing for a Gutter Runner, and you're right that you should be able to get him his second skill pretty quickly. So I'd take the +MA, but his second skill should be a defensive one - Block or Wrestle. Don't be tempted by Sprint. 
For the Rat Ogre, it depends what you want to do with him. If you're starting him off the line and using him for cage-breaking and threatening the sidelines, I'd start with Juggernaut. If you're mostly putting him on the line and letting Blizters handle the blitzing, Guard is not a bad choice. Stand Firm is a great second skill regardless of which you choose, both for resisting counter-crowd surfs and keeping his Prehensile Tail next to pesky dodgers, but I wouldn't take it first. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Apr 24, 2015 - 03:20 |
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Blitzer: MB first skill pretty much a non brainer. Tackle next.
Rat Ogre: Retire. I like them and i experimented quite a lot with them. "At one point every bb coach has to grow up" tho as my old auntie Eugene from Texas used to say. She could throw a horseshoe 140 meters wide and single-handedly laid large parts of the atlantic broadband cables as a military scuba diver. So i really trust her words.
Guard or Juggs. Sure it will suck a bit to have Juggs when you roll block. But its still useful for surfs and positioning with frenzy. And then who says the rogre will ever roll block. Or at all survive long enough for the second skill with his lousy replica of BB armor. Well lets neglect the rogre a bit as you will retire him anyway! He is the worst big guy in game and that is just true.
Gutter: MA+!!! Really make no mistake get that gutter ma+ and make him a one turner! They win games, especially when it gets tight and matters!
I avoided MA+ on gutters for awhile since OTT are easy enough with gutters anyway. I also pushed my natural one turners to OTT for awhile since i felt a natural one turner is just a bit too cheesy.
All that was wrong you still rely on luck a lot with non natural one turn attempts with gutters and they fail more often then succeed probably. Maybe the main point is that skaven will lose matches to attrition no matter how good you play - then a one turner is the only thing that can save you (and you wont have enough menz to attempt a non natural OTT).
Another side effect is that the opponent will - and often must - target that one turner, which can give you nice options for traps and positioning on the board.
Absolute non brainer. Get that one turner asap! |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 24, 2015 - 13:11 |
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First Blitzer MB, second skill Tackle
Second Blitzer, if the first didn't skilled yet, I suggest to start with tackle, or you'll have some problems with blodgers
Gutter runners
+MA is GREAT. Skill him as quick as possible with Block/Sprint/Sure feet/Leap. It's not a matter of "one turn" (that is good) but also a gutter that can be everywhere in every moment
I develope other gutters like this (except for +Stats that change things)
Ball sacker: Wrestle/Dautless/Strip ball/Leap (Strip can be changed with Tackle). On doubles Horns
Blitzer: Block/Dauntless/Tackle (on doubles Horns or Claw)
Annoying: Block/Side step/Diving Tackle/Fend (on doubles? I love "disturbing presence")
Every gutter can use well Leap and Side step, so taking one of those (expecially Side Step) is never a waste
Rat Ogre: do not agree with the majority. If you use it wisely it's good. Look at THIS team in the box. 35/10/8 with a Rattogre, 4 gutters and no blitzers. First skill Juggernaut and prevent those VERY NASTY turnovers (1/9 to make a turnover every time he blitz). |
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Mateuszzzzzz
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
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Apr 24, 2015 - 13:18 |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Apr 24, 2015 - 13:28 |
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Can only reinforce to get some SS on the gutters. Thats very important imho.
Make your AG5 Gutter the sacker. Skill route as Leilond suggested. Id take Tackle over SB personally. Id probably would also skip doubles on him - due to TV management. Dauntless can do what Horns do and then some more (you have to roll tho). But i wouldnt turn down ST+ or MA+ ofc.
Cant really go wrong with horns either. Just be aware it will raise your TV.
Rat Ogre: Gotta point out that team belongs to one of the top (skaven) coaches on the site? Wherever you might place him from your personal point of view/ skills - Fumbbl major won. Enough said. |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 24, 2015 - 14:58 |
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| albinv wrote: | Can only reinforce to get some SS on the gutters. Thats very important imho.
Make your AG5 Gutter the sacker. Skill route as Leilond suggested. Id take Tackle over SB personally. Id probably would also skip doubles on him - due to TV management. Dauntless can do what Horns do and then some more (you have to roll tho). But i wouldnt turn down ST+ or MA+ ofc.
Cant really go wrong with horns either. Just be aware it will raise your TV.
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10k more than dountless, not a great difference and you'll regret it at the first dauntless fail
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Rat Ogre: Gotta point out that team belongs to one of the top (skaven) coaches on the site? Wherever you might place him from your personal point of view/ skills - Fumbbl major won. Enough said. |
Exactly. One of the best skaven coach that I know, use it and use it effectively. I'm just now studing his black box approach to skaven, looking to replays and trying to understand what he do to have so good results
I know that Black box play is a lot different from scheduled League play (in Black Box, if you lose a 200k player, you'll usually fight a 200k weaker player, while in the scheduled league, you'll fight the same opponent using a weaker team, thus losing players in Black Box is much less a problem, unless you're to in love of your pixels), but it can help understanding problems on my bad way to play |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Apr 24, 2015 - 16:16 |
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@Leilond
Aye. Only 10K. It adds up though. FF will start to rise with almost every win...
I play box mostly and unless you are a brilliant bowler or dont care about constantly losing by getting trashed and torn to pieces in brawls with stacked odds you gotta watch your TV.
So, im currently pretty focused on it. That Dauntless suggestion was probably a bit subjective.
Its a Ranked team - so Angmarred should indeed go with Horns on a double i guess.
Thanks for pointing out Leilond.
The rogre: Oh well....i remember a thread where tara has mentioned the idea of running skaven with a rogre and skipping the blitzies instead. Yes, intriguing and a last temptation to catch the rogre fever again. But in the end i think Tara plays out of our league and we will most likely never get there.
For a rookie in any case one should at least suggest to go without the rogre imho. To each his own though - it isnt all about efficiency!  |
Last edited by albinv on %b %24, %2015 - %23:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
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Apr 24, 2015 - 16:38 |
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| albinv wrote: | @Leilond
Aye. Only 10K. It adds up though. FF will start to raise with almost every win...
I play box mostly and unless you are a brilliant bowler or dont care about constantly losing by getting trashed and torn to pieces in brawls with stacked odds you gotta watch your TV.
So, im currently pretty focused on it. That Dauntless suggestion was probably a bit subjective.
Its a Ranked team - so Angmarred should indeed go with Horns on a double i guess.
Thanks for pointing out Leilond.
The rogre: Oh well....i remember a thread where tara has mentioned the idea of running skaven with a rogre and skipping the blitzies instead. Yes, intriguing and a last temptation to catch the rogre fever again. But in the end i think Tara plays out of our league and we will most likely never get there.
For a rookie in any case one should at least suggest to go without the rogre imho. To each his own though - it isnt all about efficiency! |
Well... yes, a rookie coach should start without it
Unless you find it too fun to play and can accept some more lost match
Like my Black Box Dark Elf. Two runners... I know this is going to make me lose matches, but dump off is FUN |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 24, 2015 - 16:54 |
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The only reason not to make a natural one turning is if you play in R and won't get any games because of it.
That's the only reason.
RO is one of those guys who's really good on low TV skaven because he provides the punch you lack, but gradually becomes less and less valuable unless you get doubles on him. Eventually you want to blitz with the cpomb or tpomb (eventually ctpomb) blitzer every turn, so the usefulness of the RO begins to diminish. That said, getting guard and break tackle makes for a solid player. Guard is just hard to come by on skaven, though guard on the RO isn't that great because he's not mobile at all, unless you are blitzing. Break tackle is great because it helps with mobility, and it allows for some surfs and cage breaks that you otherwise cannot arrange.
Of course you can continue with a skilled RO at higher TVs, but a rookie RO at higher TVs is just silly as he's far too easy for those teams to deal with. |
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Rat_Salat
Joined: Apr 22, 2011
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Apr 24, 2015 - 19:41 |
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| licker wrote: | | The only reason not to make a natural one turning is if you play in R and won't get any games because of it. |
I'm not totally sure about this licker. An MA10 sidestep rat isn't quite as automatic as a natural, but has the advantage of not taking two sub-optimal skills in sprint and sure feet.
Slick was a +MA, +AG rat with block, sidestep, and two heads. I can assure you that my one regret was that he took two heads instead of leap, not knowing he was destined to become a +AG player. I never once wished for sprint or sure feet.
On the same team, at the same time was Grail, who is still active. Now grail did eventually take sprint and sure feet, but only later, and after Slick had died. He still doesn't have block, but plays great defence with his big hand and two heads.
Both players oneturned routinely. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Apr 24, 2015 - 23:53 |
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| Leilond wrote: | | Like my Black Box Dark Elf. Two runners... I know this is going to make me lose matches, but dump off is FUN |
It took me a long time to build a runner and when i eventually had one i dumped off almost every time just to do it finally! 
I had my share of that, but in this environment cold algorithms rule those that are foremost interested in winning a match. And after all is said and done, i fairly am i admit. 
| licker wrote: | The only reason not to make a natural one turning is if you play in R and won't get any games because of it.
That's the only reason. |
Just when two vets think they have got the advice down and complete a pro moves in and brings up these dreaded fumbbl meta-game aspects. lol
You are right though. I didnt consider that. My MA10 non sprinting skaven still got matches rather easily. But i wouldnt know for a complete natural one turner.
Also right and more complete about the rat ogre of course! |
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