| Poll |
| Which grammar style would you prefer? |
| Previous style - He/His/It/Its/etc. |
|
52% |
[ 23 ] |
| Modified style - The Singular They |
|
47% |
[ 21 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 44 |
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
 Posted:
May 31, 2015 - 05:27 |
 
|
I personally don't like the use of "they" as singular, but many famous writers used it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
"They was already being used with a singular antecedent in the Middle English of the 14th century.It is found in the writings of many respected authors, including Chaucer, Shakespeare, Jane Austen, Thackeray, and Shaw" |
|
|
Bobs
Joined: Feb 26, 2009
|
| Posted:
May 31, 2015 - 06:46 |
|
Forsooth thou art making a veritable mountain out of the proverbial molehill. |
_________________
si non modo numquam pragmaticam
 |
|
SquirrelDude
Joined: Mar 22, 2015
|
| Posted:
May 31, 2015 - 20:06 |
|
I'm hardly offended by any of the changes you made. I'd give it a 3/5 stars.
- Not a fan of Piling on being limited to Str 5 players. Most players with Strength 5 aren't going to want the skill in the first place because it's so hard for them to get back up, or they are so slow that it's a massive detriment.
- Not a fan of the second (and third?) gfi being taken at a -1 penalty.
- I liked changes to the injury table so that a 6 is not automatically a result of Dead.
Team Changes I liked:
- Goblin Looney losing his hands (maybe make this standard for all chainsaw star players?)
- Ogre Maneater
- Decrease in cost for the Mino
- Decrease is cost for the Assassin (says every coach of AV≥8 teams)
Team Changes I disliked:
- I think Khemri Tomb Guardians should keep their armor 9. AV8 is pretty easy to crack with just mighty blow.
- Decrease is cost for the Assassin (says every coach of AV≤7 teams) 
Short Suggestions:
- Give Necro teams access to skeletons
- Let Underworld bring up to 3 Skaven Line Rats
- Remove loner or always hungry from Goblin trolls to make those pieces a bit more reliable.
- Let Goblins buy up to two bribes and for Halflings to just purchase a master chef at team creation
- If we're going to improve the apothecary it might be wise to look at improving regen for certain pieces.
Longer thoughts on specific teams:
On Amazons:
- The blitzers getting wrestle is an interesting choice in terms of flavor, but one that I don't like. Wrestle will leave blitzers in position to get fouled, and they're already as vulnerable as is. It also doesn't synergize well with guard, which is a skill that the Amazon team relies on their blitzers taking.
- I do really like that they get the, IMO, best big guy, the Kroxigor. Giving blitzers armor 8 is also nice.
- Maybe consider giving amazon catchers movement 7 to give the team a bit more speed, or give the team some more agility skill access.
On Humans:
- Making catchers strength 3 is dangerous. That's 4 MA 8, catch Ghouls that the humans can now put on the pitch, with an Apo to heal them.
- The thrower getting Agi 4 is probably a little too much. While I agree making the thrower a better passer would be good, Agi 4 has too many implications in other areas of the game (dodging, picking up the ball, sacking opposing ball carriers, etc.). Might I recommend trading out Agi 4 for the accurate skill, or if you want to get cheeky, strong arm. |
|
|
Macabeo
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Jun 01, 2015 - 21:14 |
|
Good intentions all around and a lot of effort put into this, but quite a few changes are too radical and would create a lot of issues of their own. Anyway, here you have some hopefully constructive criticism while I'm stuck at an airport with no internet:
Like a lot:
- Non-standing players affected by the wizard: I didn't even know the rule worked that way... so weird.
- Bombardier + Jump Up: Yep, at last a useful normal skill for the bombardier.
- Pile On: The problem with CPOMB should be first addressed by making it harder to obtain and thus rarer. I'd prefer the requirement to be "ST of the attacker > ST of the defender", but ST5 is good too.
Like a bit:
- Touchback rules: Interesting, another reason to take Kick and mind your set up.
- Optional/mandatory skills: Simplifies things a bit, it also makes sense that players try their best when catching a ball and so on.
- Discount for injuries: Very interesting... although exploitable in its current form, bashers and foulers wouldn't mind taking -AG or other permanent injuries to reduce their TV and become more efficient (I know the primary and secondary attributes are there for this reason, though).
- Less death in the casualty table: Kind of makes sense to make death proportionally a less common thing, it's absurd that getting a permanent injury (rolling a 5) and death (rolling a 6) have the same odds. Less death in absolute terms is not a good thing, however.
- SPPs for secret weapon kills: SPPs for secret weapons should be the number 1 buff to goblins and assassins in my humble opinion. 1 point per kill is very little though, 2 points per CAS as with regular blocks isn't overpowered at all, I think.
- Cheaper +AV: Good, although I'd make it +20 to avoid -/+5 increments.
- Petty cash change: Makes sense, although it might be exploited, maybe.
- Cost of inducements: A 250k chef is okay, I guess. The wizard should be 200k. Cheaper mercenaries make the team more customizable for particular match ups, which I like.
- Always hungry: More eaten gobbos and fewer rolls is good.
- Claw: Not so unfair versus AV10, so yeah. The No Hands part is fine too, it would make an awful lot of sense on Daemonettes 
- Stab: Logical move.
Dislike a bit:
- No more illegal procedures: It's fine as it is.
- AG6 helps in fumbled pass: Overly complicated, and not a big issue. Boosting AG6 in terms of passing devaluates a bit other passing skills, too.
- FF doesn't affect TV: Nah, I'd rather make FAME a more interesting mechanic: add FAME to injury rolls when crowd pushing, make "Get the ref" a contested coach roll modified by FAME, and so on.
- Cheaper coaching stuff: It doesn't make them more interesting anyway, just a bit more viable TV-wise.
- Kick-off table: "Blitz!" and to some extent "Perfect Defense" can change the course of a match, but they are the main thing why setting up carefully matters, so nerfing them may not be a good idea. Setting up should be an integral part of the game, in my opinion.
- +1 to armor roll when fouling: Not the correct way of fixing fouling, the numbers are ok right now. Buffing the odds of breaking armor kind of detracts from the positional game too, as gang fouling is in relative terms a bit less important.
- No spiraling expenses: One of the few ways to make money matter in the long term and to put a stop (although often inefficiently) to monster teams.
- 7 skills: Hmmm 6 should be enough, you risk making teams with a few very good players and the rest cannon fodder even more viable.
- Negatrait removal for Big Guys: That's one of the points of taking Pro on a double, both in terms of game design and fluff.
- Ball and Chain: Fine as it is.
- Safe Throw: Insufficient, the second part of the skill should be tweaked in some other way.
Dislike a lot:
- Apo: The current one is fine, I still don't see why a weaker apo compared to LBR4's is a bad thing...
- Sent off only on armor rolls: Flat 16.6% odds of being sent out?? Foul all mens.
- Variable cost of skills: Many are proponents of this change, but I don't like it. Non-core skills have a purpose in both defining the role of a player and making starting rosters more interesting. Every game needs suboptimal stuff to let players find out combos and personalize their strategies. I'd face the issue by buffing very bad skills like Pass Block and trying to use every skill in at least one viable player (buff the assassin to make Stab and Shadowing more relevant and give Grab to Mummies instead of MB, for instance).
- 3+ Loner rolls: Some stars are pretty good already, Journeymen shouldn't get stronger, and Big Guys can be buffed in other ways.
- Double MB: Nooooooo!!! MB is already strong, allowing it to stack with itself is absurdly strong. I know this is meant as a buff for big guys, but this is broken.
- Sneaky Git: I like it as it is, it should be made more viable through the whole tweaking of the fouling rules. The KO thingy is not very consistent with babes and whatnot, and its real worth is also debatable unless the player has already DP and his TV is relatively high (for SG to work you have to foul with that player, be caught, pass the SG roll and pass the KO roll; I'd rather get a reserve and foul with the closest unskilled lineman).
- GFIs and Sprint: Why? Keep it simple.
- Sure Feet: Throw-Teammate is easy to manufacture (although the odds are low) and pretty hard to defend, which makes coaching skill irrelevant. If you want to buff stunties there are more interesting ways to doing it.
As for the rosters:
- Amazon: A change in the good direction, I had in mind a similar roster. The Thrower and Catcher should be reworked too though.
- Chaos: Nah, mino with M access is fine (at least at low TV).
- Chaos Dwarves: They are fine as they are, maybe give the mino M access...
- Pact: Ogre discount yes, mino no, more tweaks are neccesary.
- DE: Hmmm Assassin should be faster, not cheaper. Blitzers should be nerfed, yes, but as it is the 4 blitzers, maybe one witch, the rest linemen roster is still the optimal one.
- Dwarves: They are fine as they are, maybe some cost tweaking for consistence (cheaper runners, more expensive blitzers).
- Halflings: Hmmm nah, I'd rather give them AV7 as a pure stats boost. Cheaper means even less reason to develop the team and even more reason to play the inducements game.
- Humans: No to AG4, this is huge for the reasons Painstate indicates. Yes to ST3 catcher, but he should at least lose Dodge. Ogre discount is good.
- Khemri: No Decay and Thick Skull is what the team needs, yep. No to cost tweaks.
- Necro: Nah, fine as they are.
- Norse: Cheaper means stronger at low TV and almost the same at high TV, the exact opposite of what they need, so nope.
- Nurgle: Same case as Norse, only reversed, so nope haha
- Ogres: Discount (also for RRs, I'd say) and 0-8 ogres is the way to go, the maneater doesn't feel right.
- Orcs: Yes to 90k blitzers!! No to fewer BoBs and goblins.
- Skaven: The Rat Ogre is rather weak, but Skaven are fine, keep it as it is.
- Slann: Nope to the catcher, yes to the blitzer.
- Undead: The Wight is fine as it is, a more adequate low-TV fix is taking MB out of the mummies along with some tweak to boost high-TV performance.
- Underworld: They are weak at low TV...
- Vampire: Yup, many people think this is a good change and I concur.
- Wood Elf: Nah, I don't like 5k increments. Everything with the team is fine except the wardancer, that's what should be addressed. |
|
|
WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jun 02, 2015 - 02:53 |
|
I added a chart to the second post showing the cost adjustments for the rosters... |
_________________
 |
|
WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jun 02, 2015 - 03:09 |
|
| harvestmouse wrote: | I thought Chinese had the most primitive grammar of highly used languages, but what do I know.....I will say though that Wreckage's English has come on a lot in the years he's been here.
Anyhow on topic
On my note above about elves dominating. My apoth is harder (see my topic on my larger roster). With yours, this helps elves further.
Removing FF from TV isn't something I'd like to see.
I like the price reduction for injuries systems. However I think I'd remove the price reduction on secondary injuries. An AG1 Zombie for example would still be better value than a standard zombie.
How about offering temporary ff or chearleaders for 10k in inducements?
I like the drop in price of mercenaries, that would be something to monitor. I think 10k is correct thing to do now, but my hunch is another 5k maybe the correct figure eventually.
I like the changes to claw (-2 to av instead of a straight av7) and of course PO too (ST5 players). Apart from No Hands on claw. As you pointed out claw pays a necessary part, and I don't think it needs a neg trait.
Decay is now the same as a niggling injury? If so I think that's a lost opportunity, and may as well be worded the same.
I think if anything I'd have gone the other way with loner. However changing it from a 3/3, changes it's synergy with pro..........I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not!
Hmmmmmmmmm ok I see the improvements to MB. You can get MB (2), this will change things a lot. There's a lot of big guy pimping here. Generally I'm pro. A cpomb (2) big guy though is going to be a monster. All hail the return of the minotaur.
Roster changes:
Zons: Wrestle on blitzers ok. Fend on linos hmmmmm no. Why do they get fend and everybody else dodge? It makes no sense fluffwise. For me I think I'd ramp up their rr cost to 70k instead or/and add some of the 5ks you thought about, we have them now!
Chaos: Not sure with the changes to MB and PO whether the mino needs a reduction. Certainly does in crp. You could go either way on that one.
CDs/Dwarfs: I dislike the name change from Longbeards really. Mainly as it limits future releases. I think we could drop Blockers/LongBeards for Linemen who don't have Tackle. Or do that and make Longbeards a positional.
HE: As discussed the 0-4 blitzers being a typo. They're 5k more than a DE blitzer.
Humans: It's a no for me, especially the throwers. But I can see why you did it.
Khemri: Yeah I like the reasoning here. I get the feeling you're against decay on the whole. I think that's a shame.
Zombies: Decay I think is a bad idea. Especially now as taking skeletons will be a no brainer on undead teams. Before the balance was pretty good.
Ogres: I probably wouldn't add a maneater. It's making ogre fluff awkward. Bringing back goblins is of course a good idea.
Orcs: Hmmmm no. I really like being able to take 4 goblins, it adds a different feel to an orc team. Of course the blitzer price hike was needed. Maybe 85k for BoBs instead of reducing them by one?
Vamps: I don't really see a reason fluffwise or game playwise of giving thralls TS. This team really should be and play like the lords and the peasants. I'd maintain the gap between them. If they needed a boost, the vamp lord maybe? A dumbed down version that can be bought for the roster.
A special rule maybe where you play an inflated price and with that theirs a chance your new vamp will be a super vamp.
Slightly better stats, an added skill or simply didn't come with BL. Worth a thought.
I'm not sure the count should come with dodge and ss (dodge is mentioned twice btw same with Morg and mb).
Of course I've just listed the things that I think could be improved or were better before. Everything else is a great improvement and would be a move forward.
Well done WB, nice work! |
First, thanks for the weel done, I know you are picky, so it is appreciated.
I will try and answer some points you made:
I agree some sort of control needs to be in place to stop mega-Elf teams. I took out spiralling expenses out of laziness to fix it at the time and no desire to see it in its current state. It would need fixing.
Removing No Hands from Claw, was a failed experiment.
On Decay, I had a thought on making it -1 to Regen rolls instead. Give it to Skellies, Rotters and Zombies. There is also the option to remove Decay completely.
Love the 10K inducements, maybe 15 or 20 if too good from testing.
Glad you like Mercs. I thought cheaper too, but did not want to push too far too fast. Did that in enough places.
For Loner, I had thought of more complex systems that others have bandied about, like reducing it as the players gains experience, but with the ability for BGs to remove it, I didn't explore that. Also thought it may be too cumbersome.
For MBx2 I think I am settling on BGs only, to avoid 4xTGs or 2xMummies with no negatraits cleaning house.
Zons, tricky. I didn't want to break the fluff, but wanted to fix them. I will explore your suggestions.
Dwarf suggestions are interesting. The name came from the file I used as the base. It can be changed.
Fixed HE, sam eas above, typo I inherited.
Humans, where is the love?  I understand the mix of agility is tough for many, but it works very well in balance on Skaven, in a slightly different way. I think it could for Humans too. This appears a big change, I understand it is hard to swallow.
Not totally against Decay, it needs to be done properly though.
Agree on Orcs, was playing around with old ideas, not applicable anymore. This was a letting of many years of thoughts, and they are all not compatible.
Vamps would be a team that would be great to look at in depth, come up with some interesting ideas. Thick Skull is a band aid.
I think the Count needs to be one of the greatest ever, up there with Morg, so he got Dodge. (Fixed the double). Morg gets MBx2, none more fitting than him.
Again, glad you liked it overall. While I have put a lot of thought into many of these changes over the years, I have never before written them down as a whole, let alone tried to make them all harmonized with each other. Hopefully that means I have a solid base to try and consolidate them into a cohesive set of rules with the guidance of others. |
_________________
|
|
WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jun 02, 2015 - 03:17 |
|
| krytie wrote: | I like most of the changes, but I think the minus tv for injured players is fraught with danger. e.g. Currently -ag linemen are generally kept on, old warhorses which are not as good as they once were, but can still do a job for the team. The coach must decide when they outlive their usefulness or he can afford to replace them with young blood. If we introduce -tv then suddenly these crippled players are in fact a buff, meaning the team is leaner, more efficient. In effect, certain injuries become a good thing, which is surely a bad thing..?
I appreciate the attempt to mitigate this via the Primary/Secondary stat designation but I still think it's too much. e.g. -ma-2ag rotter is now 10gp? A -2ag Fanatic is now only 50gp? yes please. Also, is it deliberate that half the linelves have ST as a primary and half as a secondary?
HUMANS:
I think the AG4 human thrower is too much of a buff. AG4 should be for inhuman types like elves, rats and suitable other supernatural beings. The aforementioned QBs are rare examples and hence should be thought of as having rolled an eleven and ascended, rather than being the standard for all human throwers. I understand that it would be useful to hmans to have such throwers, but that itself is not a reason to make it a standard. Similarly, starting with Accurate is also too much and removes one of their obvious skill choices, making rookies almosta complete package (generally bad for game design). Acc and +AG set apart veterans and stars from rookies, which is surely the way we want it?
If they need a buff in any way i'd be ok with Nerves of Steel -- ironically this should be a rare/superstar type skill but since it is usually ignored for more valuable skills, why not give them it for free? This helps boost their TZ pickups somewhat and also shows their ability to throw under pressure (from the pocket, if you like).
S3 Catchers - Long overdue. Maybe need to remove the Dodge starting skill but probably fine.
Summary:
LIKE:
POW/SKULL official definitions 
Big Guy buff
Fouling buff
Kickoff Blitz! (alternatively i suggest maybe only allowing widezone players to move.)
Kickoff PD
Smaller denominations (5gp, not 10gp)
Roster changes (except where noted above).
DISLIKE:
Injury TV buff
Skill change Claw = No Hands (Teen Wolf anyone?) How about Claw = -1 to pickup/catch/intercept ?
Skill change Decay -- now seems more harsh than before as 1/3 of CAS would result in career-ending injury rather than 7/36 currently.
50/50:
GFI - I like the added risk but since the current penalty is already high (possibly death!) this added modifier is quite severe. I suggest in combination with this new modifier that GFI fails are max KO, or even Stunned. (Leap and Dodge fails can stay as they are.)
Variable skill costs: this is actually quite a good idea but it would make many coaches heads explode
Overall I'd say it's pretty good as a starting point. |
Thanks for all the feedback.
The minus TV is a treacherous slope, but manageable I believe. The rules on it do need tweaking though, this was a rough first draft. The discrepancies are probably my error or a change of thought on how to treat linemen as I went. I didn't bother to double-check much on the primaries and secondaries. This was a real quick first go. My leaning is that linemen would likely have no primary skills, and not lose much TV from injuries.
Humanity, we have forsaken you! I need to work on all of you more.
Dislikes are all good points, all being looked at for changes.
Glad you like so many of the perhaps more radical changes.
Like your GFI ideas. GFI is tricky. I am trying to limit One turning, while not hampering slower players too much, hard to balance. GFI is an odd extrapolation of running "faster" that is really integral to the game play, but odd real world-wise. An MA2 player can double their speed, an MA4, by 150%, but the fastest only add 20-25% to their speed. Not that I want them faster wither though. |
_________________
|
|
WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jun 02, 2015 - 03:18 |
|
SquirrelDude and Macabeo, thanks for the feedback, I will try and answer when time permits. Appreciate it. |
_________________
|
|
WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jun 05, 2015 - 03:20 |
|
Added a poll for grammar preference. If it is still an issue for you, please cast your vote. Thanks |
_________________
|
|
harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
|
| Posted:
Jun 05, 2015 - 15:00 |
|
It doesn't matter. It's pretty irrelevant. You're a great guy, who's put in some good work. That's all that matters. |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
Jun 05, 2015 - 15:33 |
|
It does matter as if people are finding it distracting you may end up with fewer people reading the bulk of the work.
I find having all these grammar changes highlighted in red pretty distracting. They are not rule changes so at the very least make them a colour other than red.
For me, a simple list of changes (like Plasmoid's) would be better. How many people are really going to use your whole rule set? I think it is going to be more a case of people picking the bits that they like and leaving the rest. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
|
WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jun 06, 2015 - 02:15 |
|
| harvestmouse wrote: | | It doesn't matter. It's pretty irrelevant. You're a great guy, who's put in some good work. That's all that matters. |
Thanks for the kind words.
| koadah wrote: | It does matter as if people are finding it distracting you may end up with fewer people reading the bulk of the work.
I find having all these grammar changes highlighted in red pretty distracting. They are not rule changes so at the very least make them a colour other than red. |
Ideally, I want people to be able to read it. Actually surprised people find it harder, but again, that shows my lack of knowledge of languages. I will try and hide the grammar changes for the next version. For now, avoid they, their, them,etc. and you should skip 90% of the grammar changes.
| koadah wrote: | | For me, a simple list of changes (like Plasmoid's) would be better. How many people are really going to use your whole rule set? I think it is going to be more a case of people picking the bits that they like and leaving the rest. |
I understand that many people want a simple list, but it isn't going to happen from me for a couple of reasons. I wanted to do this as a complete rewrite/modification for myself. As something I always wanted to start and try and complete. Now I've started it, I want to see if I can see it through. It is really for fun and venting.
Secondly, a list is still just a list, not a complete rewrite. I don't mean that to be disrespectful to anyone else who has made change lists either, I know people like Plasmoid put a lot of effort in and did a lot of thinking and balancing. To me though, it seemed too simplistic to just make a list of changes, versus going through the rule set as a whole, checking it over and over, and making changes to everything that I thought could be improved. The same goes for proposing one off rule changes, they don't address the entire game balance and other deficiencies. I think in the end it is a more holistic approach that takes into consideration how all the rules affect each other. There are so many small things not captured by a list that can have a big effect on game play dynamics.
Finally, I know it is likely that the rules for BB are 99.9% set in stone for eternity. My realistic view is that these rules will never be incorporated into the game, in whole or in part, which is why I focus on doing it for my own benefit. But, and a very, very small but, ...if ever there were to be rule changes, whether it were the core rules changing or a FUMBBL breakaway, I truly believe it would have to start off based on a more or less complete rule set or consolidated direction forward, not from a list or lists. So why not start it. (Again, not because I think my changes are any better than others, but because no one has put them all together in a complete document, as far as I am aware.)
All that said, the updated version I am working on will have a change log at the end listing all the updates from the previous version to make it easier to go and read the new stuff. Hope that helps a bit. |
_________________
|
|
harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
|
| Posted:
Jun 06, 2015 - 03:55 |
|
Another idea I have had is the following:
A bit of a rewrite of JM rules. However it's not so appealing to your rules as you've removed SE. JM rules stay the same apart from adding the following.
You may use Journeymen to replace missing players for your next game if you cannot field 11 players. However if you have more money than your most expensive item/player to buy, you will be obliged to spend the money. Either on an item or player (not as petty cash).
The above rule can be negated for 2 reasons.
1. It's the final game of a season.
2. If the team has commissioner approval to use Journeymen for fluff reasons. (never buys linos for example).
Journeymen do count towards TV, however they do not count towards TV when working out winnings at the end of the match. |
|
|
SquirrelDude
Joined: Mar 22, 2015
|
| Posted:
Jun 06, 2015 - 07:16 |
|
I voted for the old his/her style instead of the modified style that uses "they." I just find that the former reads a bit easier than the latter, but that's probably because it's the form that I've been raised on |
|
|
mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
|
@harvestmouse
I feel that journeyman rule should also have an exception for teams with more than 11 rostered players, especially teams with 16 if they still need journeymen |
_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
|
|
|
| |
Gnomes are trash
Search
