mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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@renton: It seems your issue was more with my intention then than the execution. The idea was to make them cheap disposable foulers. 
I didn't make any changes to Undead initially. I think they're good and strong where they are. The skeleton changes were on the Khemri roster. HM suggested that the 2 skeleton types should be the same, and I agreed so changed them to match. This does at least give the Skel and the Zomb different roles though. Currently they are very similar.
@bgh: It's unlikely there would ever be total agreement, but I think people could get behind a few changes. I thought by producing a template it would be easier to compare and contrast the different changes people wanted to make, whether here or on a separate thread.
It would be interesting to see what a FUMBBL BBRC would come up with |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Thought I'd give this one last bump while there are server problems. Might be a fun way to pass the time.  |
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jamesfarrell129
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
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 Posted:
Jul 14, 2015 - 14:33 |
 
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One day I'll make a set of house rules; they'll be heavily based off 2nd edition though so there will be a lot of extra rules added back in!
I loved the idea behind the 2nd edition team management; so teams could hire players from many different races, but would not necessarily give them the ball! So I'd change the Animosity skill and bring back Hatred and Dislike. Then I'd put back in the actual management side of it... so instead of a simple D6 (maybe + a couple) for winnings you'd have to cover wages for players individually... the idea of loyalty and morale were great in principle (maybe not in practice, as they were written) so it would be cool to have those back again!
Other 2nd edition things I liked were having characteristics for fans, cheerleaders, etc - so your fans could help you out in different ways. Goblin fans were more rowdy, stuff like that. Fun little rules, probably more paperwork than most people would want, but they would be awesome to add back in.
Finally, I'd also add back in some of the sillier race-rules, like werewolves weeing on treemen or stealing skeleton bones, halflings prone to leaving the field for a snack, that kind of stuff.
But... I guess these would mostly be gameplay changes rather than roster changes... I'd want to get those sorted before changing any rosters! |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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Jul 21, 2015 - 05:41 |
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I see a lot of people refer to sides as "tier 1" and so forth. Is there a resource where people have ranked races in such a manner? I would be curious to read it. |
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SzieberthAdam
Joined: Aug 31, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 21, 2015 - 05:55 |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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Jul 21, 2015 - 07:41 |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2015 - 14:13 |
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Hi DrDiscoStu -
not quite. The list linked above is a list of teams changed in my NTBB rules. As some teams (like underworld) are (annoyingly  ) intended to be sub-par, I have not changed them, even though they are definately not equal with CDs.
If you want you can check out some data on my site:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm
But anyway, I suppose the team tiers do change with both Team Value and Format/Metagame.
But here is a shot at a list:
Tier 0 (or less controversially: Top of Tier 1)
Amazon, Undead, Woof Elf
Tier 1a (High Tier 1)
CDs, Dark Elfs, Dwarfs, Lizardmen, Necro, Norse, Orcs, Skaven
Tier 1b (Low tier 1)
Chaos, Elf, High Elf, Human, Khemri, Nurgle
Tier 1.5 (a later addition, situated between tier 1 and 2)
Khorne, Pact, Slann
Tier 2
Underworld, Vampire
Tier 3
Goblins, Halflings, Ogres
Cheers
Martin |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2015 - 15:03 |
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Hi all,
Joshua asked me to comment, so here goes:
I like some of it, not all of it - which I think is more than you like of mine, so you're off to a good start I guess. I'll start with the stuff I like.
*Chaos/Nurgle losing regular access to M. A fine way to deal with CPOMB. This or straight nerfing Claw and/or piling on has advantages and disadvantages. Only curious thing to me is that your solution is probably least effective in a extreme long term setting like FUMBBL or Cyanide, where determined coaches will still be able to develop players with lots of CPOMBers.
*Dark Elf assassin: Nice.
*High Elf thrower: Also nice. High elves are so sad/bland.
*Norse Runner: No problem with it.
*Orc blitzer: I'm all for it
*Slann blitzer: Yup. Perhaps less likely to get ignored then.
*Vampires: Cheaper rerolls will definately help them.
*Khemri: I think removing decay makes the team a lot more appealing to play. And the new skeletons are fine.
However....
*Undead: I'm not sure that the new skeletons are fine on the Undead team. IMO the team is already strong, and giving them more options is not a good idea IMO. I'm sure someone will be able to abuse those 30K linemen.
*Human cactcher: I've seen this before, and I've sided with the ST2 AV8 buff a long time ago. IMO, the ST3 version will be a rather drastic change to how the team plays. Which may suit you just fine. But not me. Either way, I think the ST3 player wouldn't break the game or anything, so OK I suppose.
Personally, I'd rather have more ST2 catchers than less of them. Heck, give some to the zons as well..
*Amazons: Even with the Price increases, this feels like a buff to a team that doesn't really need buffing. IMO.
*Dwarfs: Already a good team. While I like that removing tackle will make Dwarfs less likely to Slaughter the tier 3 teams, I do think it is problematic that against the majority of teams your dwarfs are even more lean. The extra gold saved on 60K linemen will be bad for anyone team that doesn't start with Dodge.
*CDs: Pretty much the same comment as above. And the Break Tackle Bull Centaurs are a heck of a lot better right out of the box. I'm not sure CDs not to be any better at low TV. Not at all.
*Wood Elfs: Fair enough. I don't think MA8 catchers was the right fix for Wood elfs, so I can see why you'd roll it back. To me, the problem with the team is still the power of the WDs at low TV, and their fragility at high TV. And I think that needs to be adressed.
*Pact: Ooooh. Interesting. But these Guys worry me. 3 lonerless big Guys with access to claw. I think that is going to be a problem.
*Finally: Lonerless big Guys. I too think that big Guys aren't quite what they ought to be. But having played for several years in a League with lonerless big Guys, I think you underestimate the difference it makes. Big Guys blocking and GFI'ing with impunity is a big deal. I'd rather just knock 20K off the Price.
Cheers
Martin |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2015 - 15:06 |
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PS - speaking of Dark Elfs:
If I could make one team change, I'd do this:
I think Dark Elfs are very strong in early Development (and resurrection tournaments) as well as in late Development.
I think a big part of the problem is their quick access to 6 blodgers.
So rather than 0-4 blitzers and 0-2 worthless assassins I'd go:
0-2 Blitzers 7348 Block GA
0-2 Assassins 7348 Stab GA
Cheers
Martin |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2015 - 15:15 |
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The problem with those tiers is they completely make abstraction of the development of the team. Rookie Chaos or Nurgz for instance are some of the worst teams around. Zons are great at low TV, but have a 10 games life expectancy at higher TV, assuming you play against a large panel of teams. And if you divide some tiers into "sub tiers", then you have to do the same thing for all 3. Flings, Gobbos, and Ogres ain't equal. But how do you compare them? Rookie Gobbos are great, but Flingz pwn them after a couple of skills. Rookie Ogres can be great at low TV versus slow / low AG teams and completely suck versus elves or at higher TV.
Now, sure, we know there are "good teams", "average teams", and "bad teams". But no need to rank them. And no need to try and narrow the tiers while we're at it: BB isn't made to be balanced. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Cheers man, interesting to get your thoughts.
On the tiers thing first, I didn't know the tier list as you've written it. Like you say, it's a strange concept as teams like Chaos and Nurgle start out slow but become really good.
I always work on an assumption like this:
Tier 1: Everyone not listed below
Tier 2: Slann, Vamps, Underworld, Humans, Pact, Norse, Khemri
Tier 3: Ogre, Goblin, Halfling
Some of my changes weren't about balance so much as making teams individual and fun. I like your suggested Dark Elf change, I think that's a nice balance.
I haven't played in a Lonerless Big Guy league before, but I still like the idea. Maybe it does make them strong, but that's better than being underpowered for me. If I was changing rules (and not just rosters) then I'd just re-introduce the ability to lose negatraits on doubles.
Edit: Oh, and I don't hate the NTBB changes, but don't like them as a package. I like the Amazon Linewoman and Slann Blitzer change. The Wardancer, Mummy and Halfling changes I dislike. The others I'm fine with, but either would have done them differently or think they need refining a little. |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2015 - 15:37 |
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Well if you wanna try that, you can do it on FUMBBL: play 30 games with Flings (and make sure you skill those trees and get them at least BT), then play 30 games with Gobbos, and watch the difference between how you use the Trees and how you use the Trolls (you can do it in the Leeg too).
Loner BG are mainly used as roadblocks (unless there's no one else to do the important stuff - and admittedly, it happens on a regular basis with Gobbos - not so much with Orcs or Nurgz). Loner-less BG on the other hand can perform as rodblocks or as regular players / blitzers. The low MA restricts their use in the case of Trees. I'm inclined to agree with plasmoid on this one. Removing loner all together may be too much of a buff. |
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plasmoid
Joined: Nov 03, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2015 - 15:46 |
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Hi Kam,
I'm not here to make a thread about NTBB or balance, so I hope you'll pardon me for not picking up that discussion.
DrDisco asked about 'the tiers'. I gave it a quick shot. We all talk about the tiers anyway, even though (as we agree) Things change a lot between high TV and low TV.
Yes, I subdivided tier 1 above. I have no idea why that would require me to subdivide the other tiers as well. Tier 1 is by far the larger one, so I figured it could do with a division.
Cheers
Martin
(PS - in the box stats that I pulled, Amazons were awesome at low TV. But they were also quite good at high TV. Just saying. Perhaps Blodge just never goes out of style ) |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| Kam wrote: | Well if you wanna try that, you can do it on FUMBBL: play 30 games with Flings (and make sure you skill those trees and get them at least BT), then play 30 games with Gobbos, and watch the difference between how you use the Trees and how you use the Trolls (you can do it in the Leeg too).
Loner BG are mainly used as roadblocks (unless there's no one else to do the important stuff - and admittedly, it happens on a regular basis with Gobbos - not so much with Orcs or Nurgz). Loner-less BG on the other hand can perform as rodblocks or as regular players / blitzers. The low MA restricts their use in the case of Trees. I'm inclined to agree with plasmoid on this one. Removing loner all together may be too much of a buff. |
Well in that case I totally disagree. If your argument is that it makes the coolest, fluffiest players in BB able to do something other than stand around and get in the way, then I'm totally in favour of it |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 03, 2015 - 16:05 |
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Roadblocks do win games. My Pygmies' Krox are loners and they're the core of my offence.
@ plasmoid: Check the stats of FUMBBL's major tournaments, and you will see how good Zons do (with the odd exception of the Crossdressers). Blodge is only good as long your opponent underrates Tackle.
EDIT - And even if we take the stats of the Box:
- Win ratio > 1600 TV: 52.9%
- Win ratio > 2000 TV: 16.6% (which is completely meaningless since we're only talking about 3 games, but at least it shows what their survival rate versus developed teams is).
In any case, it definitely shows it's an average team at mid-high TV. |
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