Fabulander
Joined: Oct 11, 2014
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 Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 10:12 |
 
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| Macabeo wrote: | | Well, there's no reason why they are weaker than High Elf and Pro Elf catchers, and also in the lore Humans are supposed to be more resilient than Elves, Skaven and Goblins (no idea about Slann). Many people say they should be ST3, among which I count myself. |
Fair enough, it seems like a common sentiment. I also can't see why the pro elf catcher isn't S2, it would make them more obviously the cheap, fast, weak kamikaze elves. Maybe to close to wood elves, though, but they are already in hybrid territory right now.
What I like about the human catcher is that the human team must play with attention to their dedicated positionals who can do different things. Sometimes you have to make the hard choice between setting up a fast, weak player with a bunch of skills, or leaving him in the dugout and putting in a useless, expendable lineman instead. Being a cheap-ish flexibility team, they have challenges but they also have options.
I would like some small buff to the human team, as I think their fluff indicates that they should be almost tier 1, but I suspect that a 7337 GA catcher would just become an extra blitzer/agile fighter type player, and confine them to playing too similarly to a bunch of other teams. I fear it would make them better but also cost them options and make them less interesting.
Actually, I'd say that a price drop to the same level as skinks isn't an unreasonable solution for catchers. It makes them more cost effective in early stages and more expendable in roles such as backup fouler or deep receiver when necessary. They'll bloat and become valuable quickly anyway, if used actively. The Av8 solution seems mechanically sound, but bugs me from a fluff perspective.
Just my two cents, have a good day. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 10:14 |
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But Matt, Cpomb is necessary to deal with Orcs and Dorfs. It is probably too strong but something like that is needed. Also it stops Nurgz and Chaos sucking at all TV. And C-Pomb is fun for someone!
Decay is like ageing (although at least ageing served a purpose) in that it randomly screws people over off the pitch and annoys them with no way of anyone getting enjoyment out of it.
I'll leave the last word about Khemri with Tarabaralla -
"Playing khemri in LRB6 seems so pointless that i had to try it!
Note after game 10: again injury luck! Playing vs elves, we took just one block on our mummies in the whole match. The mummy was, as usual, the most skilled, but wasnt knocked down! Sadly our opponent wasted his last RR there (and this made us winning in the end!) to get a pow, then casualty: MNG - decay: -AV - regeneration: fail! Gotta love it! The mad one who gave decay to such a 'diesel' positional like tomb guardians is my hero! It makes playing khems absolutely nonsense!" |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 10:37 |
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| Macabeo wrote: |
- Khemri: Blitz-ras and Throw-ras are overpriced. Decay on important players hampers the progression of the team too much, too.
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Decay on TG does 2 very anti-fun things:
1) Screws your chances in the tournament. Especially in FUMBBL, because mercenaries do not work as they should.
2) Makes dice-r*pe games even more dice-r*py (2 Injury rolls for the price of 1)
IMHO the best fix is -Decay +10k in price. Combined with -10k from B-ras. |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 12:57 |
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Are people aware of the stats? On who wins? Because at high TV, it's all Elves and Zons.
http://ziggyny.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/fumbbl-high-tv-blackbox-team-stats.html
At low TV, it's Zons and Undead. Zons have a positive win ratio against Dwarfs and everyone else too. Undead just have those two big guys with no negatraits, and a blodge ghoul by game 2.
http://ziggyny.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/fumbbl-low-tv-blackbox-team-stats.html
The teams that collapse at high TV aren't Zons, they're Undead (back to average) and Orcs (down near joke tier). Orcs are one of the most losing teams up high, terrible, being big and slow is just a disaster at high TV, Trolls become useless, even Treemen can't stay on the pitch against a wall of Guard. Dwarf and Norse fall away as everyone else gets Block or Wrestle, but not as much.
If you want to balance the teams out a bit, the stunties need at least a 0-4 positional with G access, blodging goblins and DP halflings work pretty well, as does the stunty wrestle-strip/tackle combo. The Block teams need some block taken off them at low TV for a price cut, and better skill access for high TV. The slow teams all need someone faster. The elf teams probably just have too many good positionals and get rerolls too cheap. Zons need nerfed across the board.
But I remind everyone that Khemri and Underworld and Chaos Pact and the stunties are supposed to be terrible. You're supposed to be really good to even try them, they're sort of there so awesome coaches can play newbs in a tabletop league and not destroy everyone. Making Khemri an awesome development platform is missing the point. |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 13:03 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | But Matt, Cpomb is necessary to deal with Orcs and Dorfs. |
It's necessary to kill Orcs and Dorfs, but you certainly don't need that to beat them.
But indeed you need something to prevent teams to be full of legends, because they would be so freakin boring, but also for practical reason: BB is a tabletop game, and keeping track of 66 custom skills on each side would impossible and that would make the game unplayable. And in regular leagues, it's also a way to make sure the rookies can catch up with more evolved teams one day.
But tbh I think the main problem with cPOMB is that only a few teams have access to that combo. Blackle is just as strong as cPOMB in the Stunty Leeg and everyone is fine with that, because everyone can have it (and the same goes for stab, chainsaws, etc). Chaos teams have mutations, give special equipment to the non-chaotic rosters, with a couple of unique skills, and something with the same effect as Claw.
I'm fine with having my Orcs destroyed. I'm not fine with not being able to destroy AV9 CW with my Orcs.  |
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GLN 17 is out!
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MDeLarge
Joined: Aug 07, 2013
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 13:12 |
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Kam you can foul with a cheap dirty player (goats are +10k), i don't think cpombers are that big deal to treat. You can foul with a pair of assists and you'll break the armour easily than with claws |
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bigGuy
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 13:38 |
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| tussock wrote: |
But I remind everyone that Khemri ... are supposed to be terrible. |
max 2 AG
No block access on TGs combined with 70k rerolls
Normally, Tackle on 2 players only
Still challenging enough. |
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Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 13:38 |
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Fouling is nowhere near as effective or easy as cPOMBing. You have 1/3 chance to get banned (and many teams don't have a large bench - or no bench at all), and you need a bunch of assists if you want to pass the AV roll, which may ruin your positioning (or simply be impossible because your opponent isn't dumb and covers his POMBers), when a cPOMBer only needs one assist, at equal strength.  |
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GLN 17 is out!
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 13:53 |
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Bring back aging but have it only start on the 4th skill.
The nerfs that Christer considered would have still kept orcs & dwarves in line though given them more of a chance and slowed the chaos progression.
It is not just the deaths & perms though. It is the simplified game due to the ease of getting KOs & BHs. |
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[SL] + Official Stunty teams. Progression KO. Old & new teams welcome. 29th May! |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 14:39 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | But Matt, Cpomb is necessary to deal with Orcs and Dorfs. It is probably too strong but something like that is needed. Also it stops Nurgz and Chaos sucking at all TV. And C-Pomb is fun for someone! |
A good Ageing based on number of something like games played/SPPs/Player's Title might deal with Orcs and Dwarfs. Nurgle and Chaos could be improved a bit at low-med TV if clawpomb were nerfed.
C-pomb is fun if you are not at the receiving end of it, it makes playing some teams like Khemri even more pointless than it should. The fact that clawpomb teams have the duty of dealing attrition to all other teams made high TV a clawpomb hell because coaches want to be the top predators, and not the preys.
| JimmyFantastic wrote: |
Decay is like ageing (although at least ageing served a purpose) in that it randomly screws people over off the pitch and annoys them with no way of anyone getting enjoyment out of it. |
I'm not saying Decay on Guardians is a good rule, it isn't, but I think that on Rotters is very fluffy, fitting, and no gamebreaking.
Still, if you really like Khemri you can play them with Decay while you can't play vs Clawpomb at high TV.
| JimmyFantastic wrote: |
I'll leave the last word about Khemri with Tarabaralla -
"Playing khemri in LRB6 seems so pointless that i had to try it!
Note after game 10: again injury luck! Playing vs elves, we took just one block on our mummies in the whole match. The mummy was, as usual, the most skilled, but wasnt knocked down! Sadly our opponent wasted his last RR there (and this made us winning in the end!) to get a pow, then casualty: MNG - decay: -AV - regeneration: fail! Gotta love it! The mad one who gave decay to such a 'diesel' positional like tomb guardians is my hero! It makes playing khems absolutely nonsense!" |
Well, I'm aware of what Tarabaralla thinks of Khemri, by the way he thinks that Clawpomb is nonsense as well.
Clawpomb destroys Khemri gameplay way more than Decay because you can't use your Guardians as you should, on the frontline, without risking a quite likely KO or worse, EVEN if they had no Decay this wouldn't change. |
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Shakall
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 15:25 |
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You can get niggled on a normal block from decay. It happend last night and made the victory a bit less sweet. Yes Matt it didn't change the game since he was out anyways but it hurts my chanses in the long run. It can take an amazing amount of time to skill TG's back to usefullnes (guard + Mb as a minimum). This player got his first MVP in his 41th game  . Lost two TG's like that last few games and with out guard TG's you start giving away far to many blocks for my likning. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 15:38 |
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I'm not saying that Cpomb isn't really bad for TGs (or Saurus or Ogres) cos it obviously is... but Decay is just awful and what makes Khemri kinda pointless for league play. |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 16:08 |
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| tussock wrote: | | But I remind everyone that Khemri and Underworld and Chaos Pact and the stunties are supposed to be terrible. You're supposed to be really good to even try them, they're sort of there so awesome coaches can play newbs in a tabletop league and not destroy everyone. Making Khemri an awesome development platform is missing the point. |
Have to disagree somewhat. Khemri are terrible (from what I have read in the forums on their redesign)because Galak wanted them out of BB, couldn't, so crippled them.
For playing noobs, there are always Stunty teams and house rules. Don't cripple the other rosters. They don't all have to be even, but they should all have advantages and disadvantages that make them interesting, yet competitive, to play. |
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awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 16:28 |
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I throw this here...
the only perm injury is death.
all other injuries can heal on a roll of 6 at the start of any subsequent match.
any stat increase can "poof" away on a roll of 1 if the player has >51 spp at the start if any subsequent match.
[starts running away] |
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"la virtù sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2015 - 16:53 |
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| Shakall wrote: | | You can get niggled on a normal block from decay. It happend last night and made the victory a bit less sweet. Yes Matt it didn't change the game since he was out anyways but it hurts my chanses in the long run. It can take an amazing amount of time to skill TG's back to usefullnes (guard + Mb as a minimum). This player got his first MVP in his 41th game . Lost two TG's like that last few games and with out guard TG's you start giving away far to many blocks for my likning. |
Losing a Guardian sucks, I know that well, but if you play in Black Box having too many developed Guardians will lead to higher TV matches.
How does it hurt your chances in the long run if you play in the Box and you are paired by TV?
If you lose TV you are going to play an easier match (assuming you don't get a huge TV mismatch but it's quite rare).
Instead if you play in League and you lose a Guardian every 8 games (my personal average) you still should have some players with skills to play.
Personally I don't play to skill my players, but to win every game I play and Clawpomb affects chances of winning more than Decay.
Yes in an ideal world you would have 4 Guardians with Mighty Blow and Guard, but you can live with 1-2 unskilled Guardians, as long as the rest of your team has some skills.
You have a win rate of 61% with Khemri, far from an "unplayable" win rate.
| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | I'm not saying that Cpomb isn't really bad for TGs (or Saurus or Ogres) cos it obviously is... but Decay is just awful and what makes Khemri kinda pointless for league play. |
I play Khemri in league as well and I don't think they are so pointless.
Not top tier 1, sure, but as long as a team has a win rate around 60% I don't think it's pointless to play it.
I found more pointless playing Khemri vs an underdog team with a Wizard.
You don't lose players but you are going to lose/tie the game probably, since dropping the ball with Khemri during a drive is problematic, not to mention the threat of getting a fireball/lightning any turn.
I repeat again: I'd remove Decay from Tomb Guardians and I agree that it's stupid on them, but I think that it's not as gamebreaking for the team as many coaches think, especially when compared to clawpomb. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %21, %2015 - %17:%Aug; edited 6 times in total |
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