Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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 Posted:
Feb 08, 2016 - 03:24 |
 
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I just feel like this perspective is a little shortsighted. Or rather it comes with a kind of pessimism that perceives the game in a state of constant inevitable decay.
As with the pond example, the problem is that as the game evolves it is only ever going towards more competitiveness.
The pond recovers, we don't recover.
This process can be massively slowed but on a larger scale it always will go in the same direction (the only thing to make it tumble in chaos again would be a rule change).
From a scientific perspective and a game design perspective however it is very interesting to watch this process at an accelerated speed because... well..
the main reason why it is so hard to make a case for a rule change is because the data provided is not so clear as opinions on the matter are.
You can claim all day long that certain races and builds are superior yet when you ask different people what these races are you'll not always get the same answer. Then even if we have a consensus we have people constantly defy this logic, being able to compete with second tier teams and second tier skills on a statistically relevant level.
The data needs more clarity and more certainty. Noncompetitive play is just a way to water down the quality of the data. The point where we would have to get to to make a rule change really compelling is the point where we can show that the majority of people is only playing one race anymore.
When I look at the game and its beautifully build mechanics, unique in the world of games, it could be one to be still played in hundreds of years or one to be forgotten in a few years.
Call this game a niche interest, whatever, I still believe in this product wholeheartedly. And we, us, all of us, can either be part of contributing to its quality, its integrity, its stability over the years or we can treat it like a convenient pasttime and well.. gut it out like a fish and throw it away.  Just to stay with the analogy. |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Feb 08, 2016 - 04:40 |
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| Angmarred wrote: | EA have you considered folks might be passing on the stat for game reasons? I'd never take ag on a linerat and a TV is a distant third if it factors at all.
1) even if you take the ag, a Skaven team still has 4-5 players better suited for ball handling. Gutter Runners are faster and start with Dodge. Throwers start with Sure Hands and Pass so they pick up better and move the ball forward better. Most of the time you'd rather have the ball in the hands of one of them over your ag4 lino. Which means your Lino is now an av7 player with no defensive skills open for hits. I'd rather have Wrestle.
2) Skaven have plenty of ball handling but few players who can do the dirty work in the trenches. A wrestle player can give and take hits much better and with av7 you need that guy on the pitch. Skaven need their linemen to be crappy blitzers way more than they need them to be crappy gutter runners
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1) moving the ball with a skaven thrower without ag4 or extra arms is asking for trouble. dont do that. its an ok backup option if gutters are dead or rerolls gone.
2) the ag4 lino is not necessarily needed for ball handling. dodging away with your ag4 lino is much better than keep your wrestle guy there to get punhced. you also get a mobile st3 blitzing choice, anf skaven need good blitzing choices.
3) 4 gutters (if you deploy them all, often in defense one is benched) and 2 blitzer leaves 5 linos - rat ogre is a fun but not necessary option depending on play style, throwers are worse than an ag4 lino except they roll sth good.
-> this is not even a TV maximin choice. +ag on a lino is good. would be even in a maximin environment like the box (which is the home of maximin to get easier matchups, in a league its less important even if you wanna consider it) |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Feb 08, 2016 - 10:18 |
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| xnoelx wrote: | | Except that analogy ignores the main point he made, because ruining a food source like a trout lake would/could be a life and death matter. A better comparison would be if the trout lake was still there, but there was a patch of dill nearby, and the dill was BB. |
The trout lake was for recreation, not really a food source. The trout will sustain themselves if fished moderately by the village. However, if overfished people are going to start blanking, not having fun and the environment will deteriorate. They are Brown Trout not Rainbow, Brook or Sea Trout.
| fidius wrote: | | This is entertaining. HM is feisty tonite! He can't be drunk can he, it's morning in Japan! |
I'm back in the UK at the moment. I was very very very drunk!!! However, although there is a serious point here, I did add a comedy element (or so I thought).
And all the rest fidius wrote I think is correct.
| MattDakka wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: |
However.....you are a zealot. There's no other way to describe you. Your views are somewhat left wing of left wing. |
I'm a zealot but you are a zealot too, so accusing me of being a zealot is a bit ironic. |
I can accept that, and as I mentioned there was a fair bit of humour in my posts. As I said over the years I've gained a lot of respect for you.
| MattDakka wrote: |
Self-governing is utopic, without rules some people will always exploit something.
Unless the community is very small, self-governing is not going to work, the human being is generally selfish.
We have rulesets and laws to prevent that selfish behaviours have a negative effect on community and society. |
I think it does. We already self govern ourselves a fair bit. To play in extremely unsocial ways you really have to go against the grain and be the nail that sticks out. More often than not these coaches do get their comeuppance and I also believe this puts a lot of players off of playing in this manner.
I feel it's my job to remind people of this, so it puts people off of playing in unsocial ways. My feelings are of course extremely strong, so I feel it's my positions (a position giving to me by a very important person in the hobby (me)) to threaten people with spoons if they refuse +AG on Skaven linemen.
I really can't see why nobody else cannot see how turning a man into a woman with a spoon isn't ok to do on coaches that turn down +AG on Skaven Linemen.....I mean seriously?!
| MattDakka wrote: |
I will make an example: I like to play Khemri, if I don't control their TV I could face either a clawpomb spam team or an elf team with a Wizard (and mind, even in private league environment it's important to keep the TV in check, not just in a MM one like the Box).
Am I trying to win the game before it begins, or am I just trying not to lose the game before it begins?
In other words, controlling the TV may be a self-defensive workaround to avoid broken match-ups.
When ALL the exploits are fixed then we will talk about the "unfairness" of the TV management.
We could even discuss about the bad pricing and design of some rosters and players that make some choices more effective than others.
Is really unfair TV controlling not rostering a Rat Ogre because it sucks for its price? |
Well there aren't definite lines, however with experience we should know what is ok and what isn't. It's not a black and white formula, like most things in this game. You could probably go over by a bit, there's room for roster manipulation......it's a good part of the game.
However, this is fundamentally the problem with Blackbox for me; having to play games you wouldn't usually go within a mile or 1.6km of. I get your opinion that you shouldn't be able to pick or turn down games. I think you're right. However, when that means that oaches are trying to win the game before it begins by using rosters in a way that wasn't intended...well that isn't right. I don't want to play like that.
As for players, all players 'should' be useful. As I've said many times before, I'm really really not a fan of TV match making as it is.
@Wreckage as I said I think self governing does work to a certain degree. Particularly in a game like here where it's not a commercial product. Also, as I have said before I am a BloodBowl lifer. As I get older I'm not maturing at all. So I can be fairly sure I'll still be in this hobby when I'm 70-80 (unless somebody catches up with me and my spoon). So I do really care for the integrity of the hobby. I've also said that I think most new coaches do start because of the quality of the fluff and the product; rather than trying to be a competitive gamer (we may disagree on that, if we do that's ok).
So I feel it's important that the romance is there. Not taking +AG on this beautiful Romeo of a skaven player is......as romantic as substituting farts over rose petals in a bath for 2. The fragrance is there, but it's the wrong fragrance. |
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