Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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 Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 11:57 |
 
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I have used a slann team with the catcher build specifically for majors. Thracian Heroes. I didn't buy anything specifically expensive but skill accumulation on some players still made the TV skyrocket. I will probably focus on better balanced teams for now but right now I'm more skeptical about the inclusion of a super costly blitzer than I have ever been.
The idea is to use the Kroxi instead of a dedicated blitzer. The argument is that the race lacks in strength for proper blitzing, so may aswell go the Juggernaut route with the krox.
Just if you look at how high a team can realistically get before it runs in serious financial trouble and before it gives off a vibe of serious bloat, that's probably 2200 at the very latest.
That's a TV you can reach on a half developed Slann team without Blitzers. Now imagine what a team with 4 blitzers and 4 catchers would be like. And keep in mind that those player types are only any good with some skills on them.  |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %22, %2016 - %11:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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PaddyMick
Joined: Jan 03, 2012
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Apr 22, 2016 - 11:57 |
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You are not alone. I have tried 2 or 3 times to build a slann team and failed. Too many injuries early on. But I took 4 blitzers right away. Problem is they are expnsive and when injuries start to come it can be a vicious cycle.
Having said that, for me the only reason to play Slann is the blitzers. They are awesome cool players especially when skilled and have lots of developement paths, being the only poisitional (apart from vamps, i think) with GSA access.
Stick with it, you may lose a lot of games startig out but it will be hugely rewarding when (if) the team comes together (and devastating when they come apart again!). |
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cdassak
Joined: Oct 23, 2013
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Apr 22, 2016 - 19:25 |
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Nestoroide is another great Slann coach, check out his retired Box teams. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Apr 22, 2016 - 19:51 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | 1) for me, but there are coaches who I think are great who go 2). I suspect it might be influenced by the TV at which you like to play BB. Coaches that prefer very high TV tend towards Blitzers, as a vast generalisation. |
I agree with that generalization. My view is that for higher TV play blitzer slann is going to be a lot of fun and quite good while the blitzers survive - though rebuilding them is a chore. Some coaches (do well with catcher slann even in tournaments, but I think they are quite outnumbered by blitzer slann wins in FUMBBL majors.
At lower TV, there is no question that catchers and a krox is going to get you more wins. The issue is, that if you don't invest in blitzers early on then they will be horrible bloat as unskilled rookies to add to an already developed slann team. This means if you don't start with bltizers early then they probably won't ever be worth it to you, unless you play MANY games with the team. Some people do like to run one blitzer and the rest catchers, but I don't see many successful teams built like that (I don't know why, maybe it can work).
So for 1) you get a krox and catchers to start and use linos as "blitzers". For 2) you get a krox and 2 blitzers (no catchers) to start and try to skill the bltizers ASAP. Once you get some skills on them you get another bltizers.
EDIT: For what it's worth, I would go with 2) for league play. Path 1) tends not to survive very long in a league. |
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NickNutria
Joined: Jul 25, 2006
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Apr 22, 2016 - 20:08 |
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For me catchers are too fragile and blitzers too expensive. My best slann team was an all linemen slann team: for 60k you've got stats like a human lineman plus the too skills very long legs and leap. A really nice deal and with only linemen you can afford a lot of rr really early. Also only leap if you have to. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Apr 22, 2016 - 20:35 |
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| NickNutria wrote: | | For me catchers are too fragile and blitzers too expensive. My best slann team was an all linemen slann team: for 60k you've got stats like a human lineman plus the too skills very long legs and leap. A really nice deal and with only linemen you can afford a lot of rr really early. Also only leap if you have to. |
Yeah but then again... with catchers and ag4 you can also leap a lot and don't need as much RR. |
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VonManson
Joined: Apr 14, 2016
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Apr 22, 2016 - 21:16 |
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| happygrue wrote: | So for 1) you get a krox and catchers to start and use linos as "blitzers". For 2) you get a krox and 2 blitzers (no catchers) to start and try to skill the bltizers ASAP. Once you get some skills on them you get another bltizers.
EDIT: For what it's worth, I would go with 2) for league play. Path 1) tends not to survive very long in a league. |
I like what you are saying here. Especially now that I have played a few games I am finding the ag4 is a bit deceptive and without in built rerolls is costing me silly turn overs and lose balls.
The running game seems to be the way to do it league style and the blitzers at st3 are more resilient and as was pointed out earlier have the better skill options later on.
Might delete the team before starting the OBBA league and start a new one |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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Apr 22, 2016 - 22:23 |
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Early slann are easier with catchers, but the best slann are built by suffering through those early matches to build up some skilled blitzers. I tend to hire my second catcher only if/ after I have 4 blitzers with at least 16 SPP each. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Apr 22, 2016 - 22:27 |
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Truth is: The catcher build is better early on. In terms of survivability you have to think of it as a really sturdy av7 team.
It's not harder to stay alive than with any actual av7 team.
Once you have skills it's still on par with a blitzer built. Probably it's just always better.
Ag3 can't leap. And if you don't play Slann for leap you waste a lot of TV on a useless skill. |
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VonManson
Joined: Apr 14, 2016
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Apr 22, 2016 - 22:39 |
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So what stops the two blitzer, 4 catcher build. Is it bloat oris the kroxigor that important? |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Apr 22, 2016 - 22:49 |
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| VonManson wrote: | | So what stops the two blitzer, 4 catcher build. Is it bloat oris the kroxigor that important? |
It's totally the bloat. Basically just look at your average strength. A st5 center piece can tie up two opposing players or a stronger opposing piece and compensate for a lot.
As I said earlier: With the catcher build you need skills on the catchers. You also kind of need to skill the linemen. Basically the catchers can do support and carry. The linemen have to do the ball lifting.
With the blitzer build you are primarily focused on applying whatever role to the blitzers you need them in. But you must skill the blitzers at all costs. Like... unskilled blitzers are really terrible. If you start without catchers, they won't soak up spp. So you basically accomodate your build that way.
If you have both you get matched against harder opponents all the way as you skill them up.
And best case at some point you hit a barrier were you can't properly skill any further and still don't have the most basic things you need.
It's all not as absulte as people make it out to be. There are valid points for running one blitzer in a catcher build and there are probably points for running some catchers in a blitzer build. Just keep in mind that doing this will give you a harder time on the progression ladder. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Apr 22, 2016 - 23:09 |
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A lot of the fun you'll get out of Slann (if any) depends on your style of play. Blitzer slann plays like humans except for the few turns each game that you play them as wood elves. That's obviously a generalization, but when all goes "well" you don't leap around until you need to - if at all. You use the *threat* of leaping around to contain and bash your opponent, and use diving tackle and leap to make sure they can't move where they want to go.
With catcher builds, you cannot outbash most opponents and you end up playing them more like vamps - awesome abilities but you HAVE to roll and not get 1s if you want to win the game. It's a dicer strategy and one that will win you lots of games - especially against unskilled opponents or low TV folks. However, when I look at a team I'm facing I am not scared of catcher slann at all - sure if they get good dice they will beat me and there is little I can do (like vamps), but with average results it's usually possible to make them burn their RR and take risks. A good ballcarrier and a good screen can make it very hard for catcher slann to win.
Not to mention what happens to your catchers when they run into the real beasts: a nurgle team with enough tents. GG man, gg. But depending on how much you like vampires or leaping around every game and passing or handing off to catchers you might love them. They are quite fun!
EDIT: I don't usually chime in on these threads anymore, but since I'm here.. The other thing that is often overlooked is what happens on +stats. Blitzer slann can be quite amazing with normal only rolls AND if you get +ag and/or +ma on them they are quite amazing. With 4 blitzers and a number of roll you have fair odds to get one or more +ag blitzer and a few +ag linos. When you compare the cost (and the fact that +ag is twice as likely as +st) of a +ag blitzer and a +st catcher... look at the cost difference, the starting skills the statline and the skill access, and even as a rookie you have think blitzers start to be temping.
Buying blitzers is a gambit - you throw away some short term potential and seek out how incredible the team can be later on. +st +ag on a catcher gives you a great player also, but you might get two +ag +ma blitzers in the same amount of time... |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 22, 2016 - 23:23 |
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Not that I play slann myself, but to echo what grue is saying...
Facing catcher slann I have absolutely zero concerns, they really cannot control the pitch the way blitzer slann can. Can they win? Of course, zero concerns doesn't mean I think I will beat them, it just means I basically know exactly what they can do, and that I can usually drive the game the way I want to, so it will just come down to their rolls (more than my rolls).
Blitzer slann? Not at all the same, they can control the game and dictate it to you far more easily than just about any other team (or matchup) I have ever faced. They are a freaking nightmare to deal with generally, and it comes down to MY dice, not theirs.
Now I'm as likely to get good dice for me as the opponent is to get good dice against me, but the difference is that when I get to dictate, I don't have to roll the same kind of dice (my dice are not as important because most of my rolls are not as consequential). When the opponent is dictating to me, now all of my dice are crucial, including what seems otherwise trivial pushes or stuns. Meanwhile the blitzer slann can just play their game and really pick their spots, or just wait out my team and force me to pick my spot after they've prepared for it.
Clearly there are difference at what TV you are playing also, and clearly rookie blitzers are a very expensive mediocre player. None the less, catcher slann are far more at the mercy of their opponents roster and ability than are blitzer slann. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Apr 22, 2016 - 23:33 |
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| happygrue wrote: | With catcher builds, you cannot outbash most opponents and you end up playing them more like vamps - awesome abilities but you HAVE to roll and not get 1s if you want to win the game. It's a dicer strategy and one that will win you lots of games - especially against unskilled opponents or low TV folks. However, when I look at a team I'm facing I am not scared of catcher slann at all - sure if they get good dice they will beat me and there is little I can do (like vamps), but with average results it's usually possible to make them burn their RR and take risks. A good ballcarrier and a good screen can make it very hard for catcher slann to win.
Not to mention what happens to your catchers when they run into the real beasts: a nurgle team with enough tents. GG man, gg. But depending on how much you like vampires or leaping around every game and passing or handing off to catchers you might love them. They are quite fun!
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Its true that you can't outbash anyone. You play literally without any blitzer, meaning you are lacking the most basic unit in cas dealing. Although a well developed big guy can compensate for it, you shouldn't put your life into the hands of a big guy out of convenience but only out of necessity.
Although there are some similarities to vamps and vamps are in fact one of the hardest opponents to beat with catcher Slann, I don't think you necessarily need to Dodge much or are necessarily more dependent on dice.
Just as with elf teams you have the added flexibility to provide assists where needed and dictate positions in the game. In difference to pretty much any other race there is virtually no way for your opponent to ever lock you in. You can get out of any situation anywhere - with some luck of course. But in terms of probability you are a lot better off.
As for burning rerolls and solid defense, it is an issue, which means you have to time your charges well and keep 3 or 4 rr ready to blow them all in consequtive turns. The rest of the time you should keep your distance, avoid getting cas and set yourself up to get a high probability shot at the ball.
Without RR you can still go all crazy but then you really need Nuffle to come through for you. So make it stick while you have RR.
And as for Nurgle, I love nurgle games. They are really engaging and challenging and fun with catchers to beat.
There is no immanent necessity to ever hand off or pass when you just can run down the pitch and get out of anywhere. But still opportunities tend to present themselves.
Mind you catchers have Diving Catch which is an absolutely epic skill, you probably would never take on your own but it allows you to do insane things going through your offense. Tents can be tricky but there are always ways to deal with it. I usually dodge from tents early in turn since failing it usually doesn't come at a cost and the overall probability of being able to escape and failing the dodge is actually lower than with a simple dodge. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Apr 23, 2016 - 00:59 |
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My own advice:
1. Forget everything you just read;
2. Click on happygrue's name;
3. Check all his Slann games;
4. Forget what you saw;
5. Search for Nestoroide's name in the coach search bar;
6. Watch his Slann games, except his latest one;
7. Rinse and repeat with every good Slann coaches you can find. |
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