Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Feb 01, 2016 - 12:06 |
 
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I understand the utility of Pro on loner big guys with debilitating negative traits. But I would get Block on the first double 100% of the time.
I also understand the point of it on Vampires, but it's still probably 3rd on the list of things to get at best.
But I really don't understand the point of putting Pro on just about any other player. It seems there's always a more appealing skill that will improve their abilities in their given role. And if the action I'm attempting is important I'll just use the team RR for it anyway.
Is Pro really worth the space on most players? I can't help feeling it's a wasted skill. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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Feb 01, 2016 - 12:12 |
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It can be nice on a hitter, especially one with jump up. Basically you get to retry failed jump ups without burning a reroll, or try to reroll non-critical pushes. That player's effective goes up, and at the same time you get the benefit of less reroll attrition.
For example, pro on this wolf as a legend skill was absolutely the best choice. |
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tmoila
Joined: Nov 25, 2012
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Feb 01, 2016 - 12:14 |
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Players who are likely to burn rerolls in early stages of given sequence benefit most from pro. Such as leaping sackers. |
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ArthurWynne
Joined: Sep 23, 2015
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Feb 01, 2016 - 12:43 |
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Can't believe I didn't think about that before. If you've already used your team reroll in a given turn, it's all upside. |
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jdm
Joined: Nov 30, 2011
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Feb 01, 2016 - 12:46 |
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| Killing_Time wrote: | | And if the action I'm attempting is important I'll just use the team RR for it anyway. |
This 100% but pro doesn't improve one skill a lot, it improves every dice roll a little bit. Any non essential roll that you're not happy with you can try and redo. Double push? Hypnotic gaze? Dodge when you're out of rerolls and can't access ag skills. Catch or pass reroll. Dauntless. A myriad of situational uses but not one shining example. |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Feb 01, 2016 - 12:52 |
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OK, these make sense.
I really hadn't factored in that it's a re-roll after the team re-roll has been used. |
Last edited by Killing_Time on %b %01, %2016 - %12:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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Angmarred
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
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Feb 01, 2016 - 12:53 |
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I think your analysis is spot on. I'd only consider Pro on guys who make a lot of non-turnover rolls. Loners (Big Guys) and Vampires are the obvious ones. I also agree that Block trumps Pro on Big Guys (as do maybe Dodge and Tackle) and Pro is 3rd skill after Blodge for Vamps. Also consider Pro on guys with Dauntless and Jump Up. Those are the only non-TO rolls I can think of.
I'd also consider it late in development for some guys once you take all the better skills. It can be useful for double pushes. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 01, 2016 - 13:13 |
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Pro is a nice add on on important players, who are spp hogs. These tend to be killer types. Spicing up Jump up / Dauntless / Frenzy with Pro is really good. It is also good on miracle workers, like wardancers, where you need to roll a ton on any given turn, and having only 1 team reroll is not expected to be enough. |
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delusional
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
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Feb 01, 2016 - 13:25 |
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I don't think Pro Trumps Block on SOME big guys. Particularly the Mino and Rat Ogre where you have Wild Animal + Frenzy combination.
Now think about it, you have a ST5 guy who has 1/2 a chance at getting up unless they blitz or block (which they can't do if their getting up).
You suddenly give them Juggernaught, block doesn't matter anywhere near as much. You now have a 1/9 (with Pro) chance of getting up and bashing the crap out of the player when you need too. For a skaven team down 5 men, I could see how that would make allot of sense. Chaos/CD... well you may not want to potentially waste your blitz that way.
Even then, I would rather a troll/Rat Ogre/Mino to move and to mark the player then to hit or be hit by the block. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Feb 01, 2016 - 13:51 |
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Chainsaw and bghandras and others make a good case, but I'm still very anti-pro. I have it on a +ag vamp, and I like it okay there, but I'll keep it to one +ag vamp per team for now.
Sure, killers could take pro late in the game, and that can work and be effective.
Big guys could take it... but big guys with other doubles are so good I would rarely use one on pro. An exception might be Sam Ax or something like that..
Sure if can be good, but if you have it then to make it effective you have to use it. And that means choosing times when you want a different result and opting NOT to RR them but to instead take a 50% chance that you'll get another result - and that result might be worse.
When you use pro to RR a block, half the time it doesn't work and of the other half of the time it's going to just knock your player over with double skulls that you CANNOT then RR 1/36 of the time (assuming a 2d block). So when you RR those pushes looking for pows, you're going to get a lot of pows and you're going to do a lot of damage - maybe even winning some games because of it. But about 3 times in every 100 such RR pushes you're just going to fall over and that's the end of your turn. In effect, it means you're going to be doing "pro things" on your turn that effectively make your RR useless, even if you have one. That is probably going to lose you some games too.
If you embrace the poker aspect of our game then you will find use in this skill - it can help you win more than it hurts you in the right setting. But as BB is NOT poker and you're not just trying to maximize your random blocking but instead you're trying as hard as possible not to fail certain critical rolls that make you lose the game you may also find, as I do, that I'd rather have a more solid skill that doesn't mess with the ability to RR critical rolls. |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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Feb 01, 2016 - 13:57 |
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Once you've got Jugg on a big guy, you don't really want Block on top, depends what other skills you already have if Dodge or Tackle are worth it, so Pro can be a good first double skill later in life.
Depends how many skills you start with for normal positional players, it's good 5th or 6th skill on a lot of skill-heavy types that don't get any doubles or stats, especially a big hitter to fish for knockdowns without having to bloat up team RR. |
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NickNutria
Joined: Jul 25, 2006
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Feb 01, 2016 - 14:16 |
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Pro is nice on big guys and vampires as you already mentioned, but it's also a fantastic skill on any guy with the block skill like Human blitzers. If you don't roll a pow on a two-dice block reroll it with pro without wasting a team rr. That way you get many more pows, sometimes it might also be useful for other things like catching, throwing, intercepting or extra steps. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 01, 2016 - 14:18 |
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I think the expectation is the real barrier for pro. Let me explain.
A rostered reroll costs on average 60k, which is considered a bargain. This actually gives you 2 rerolls, one in each half. So the cost of one reroll is about 30k. Which means that you only need to use pro ONCE in a given T16 match in a way it matters, to break even.
I understand, why the human mind overrates skills that are useful every turn, even if the use is marginal. But if you want to win more, you should go for the higher expected value.
My experience suggests that it is easy to use pro in a way that it profits twice per game on average, thus it is "money" (aka good investment) for me on certain players. |
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MDeLarge
Joined: Aug 07, 2013
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Feb 01, 2016 - 14:50 |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Feb 01, 2016 - 15:20 |
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| bghandras wrote: |
I understand, why the human mind overrates skills that are useful every turn, even if the use is marginal.
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I don't. Perhaps I don't get how a useful skill every turn is of marginal use. What would be an example?
| bghandras wrote: |
But if you want to win more, you should go for the higher expected value.
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Exactly, which means that showing that a skill that can be useful twice a game is not enough. It needs to be compared to other skills, and to the expected rewards.
Pro fails half of the time. There seems to be two ways to use it: failing is not an issue, and failing is not an option. The first usage sucks, I think. It entails one chooses a skill that is totally "win more," i.e. it's extraneous. The second usage mainly applies to players who rely on a skill stack to do one thing right.
As fluff, it makes sense. A player who's only a Pro looks silly, because he convinced himself he's a master of everything. A player who's a Pro after having developed a leading role in a team is a real Pro, at least half of the time. |
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