FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

ph0enyx13

Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 04, 2016 - 03:54

So, when building a team like orcs you have 4 black orcs. The 2 most important skills for any st 4 player are block and guard. How do you like to stagger your first skills to accommodate this? Give all 4 block? Give the first 2 block, the third guard, and the 4th block? Give every other block?
Some other combination? Something that involve mighty blow?

DarthPhysicist

Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 04, 2016 - 04:24

I go guard first.

No pie option? Heathen.

Edit: pie<>pi

DarthPhysicist

Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 04, 2016 - 04:26

And if I was a clone of Adolf Hitler, wouldn't I look like GOD DAMN ADOLF HITLER?!

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Using derivative humor since 2005.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 04, 2016 - 04:31

For me the first skill on Blockers is Block to have blocking reliability and to start to earn SPPs through Casualties.
Guard is the second skill.
If my ST 4 Blocker has Guard but not Block I will block less often, making his Strength 4 less useful this way.

DarthPhysicist

Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 04, 2016 - 04:35

Let me clarify: In the box I go guard first on BOBs and Mighty Blow on Blitzers. I do the reverse in leagues. The reason I do this is to slow development intentionally of my BOBs in the box and not reach killer chaos too soon.

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Using derivative humor since 2005.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 04, 2016 - 04:43

DarthPhysicist wrote:

The reason I do this is to slow development intentionally of my BOBs in the box and not reach killer chaos too soon.

You can control your TV anyway, just by firing the bloaty players, playing with 2 rrs and taking Leader on the Thrower if you want the 3rd.
As long as Orcs stay below TV 1500 they are fine.

DarthPhysicist

Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 04, 2016 - 04:50

Sure, but guard is so useful to help the blitzers move about free and unfettered. I've stopped using throwers (useless AV 8 ). I like to fire and recycle the blitzers cause they level faster inherently as my AG 3 ball carriers.

ahalfling

Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Posted: Jul 04, 2016 - 05:06

If you need to put guard on your black orcs to hold the line at low TV, you are doing something wrong.

Against fragile teams, you want to hit the opposition and push the line forward. Block makes that possible with limited risk. Guard will be of limited utility in most circumstances.

Against other power teams, it's fine to hit, but the main benefit of the BOBs is that they are likely to tie up at least 4 and maybe more opposing players on the line of scrimmage, allowing your blitzers to square off one-on-one or even two-on-one against lone dwarves, skinks, beastmen, etc. -- a favorable matchup for the blitzers. If there is a guard with no block, the opponent will hit the guard first, and he is likely to go down.

Note also that guard is a good first skill to give to your troll, barring a doubles roll. The troll can't take G skills anyway, and because he's ST5, he's not going to get knocked down as easily by the kinds of teams that want to brawl with orcs. If you need guard, you can always run a blitzer who has it into the scrum, and guard is also the best choice if one of your linemen rolls doubles.

I'm more tempted to give a BOB mighty blow early than guard. I'm willing to admit some of that is greed, and some of it is the old argument that giving them MB gets them to skill 2 faster. I remember once reading a pretty persuasive argument that, in addition to making the player less survivable, MB actually doesn't cause the player to get to skill 2 any faster than block. (And you're presumably giving at least one of your blitzers MB, if you need to target a guy. The BOB is a bad choice for that anyway, given that he can't really chase the enemy down.)

So, yeah, long story short, it's block.

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(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.)

PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jul 06, 2016 - 18:27

Well if we are discussing rookie teams. The rookie teams/rosters that do the best are the ones that start with 4 players with block, then the teams that start with 2 players with block.

SO

Lets say you have a 10 team league and all the teams have 16 linos with G/S access.

You can only select as your first skill Block or Guard. Your second skill must be Block or Guard.

So you will have 3 "builds" in the league.

#1 all block on first skill
#2 all guard on first skill
#3 Mix and Match on the first skill

So based on our experience with rookie teams it is most likely that the team that goes ALL block as the first skill will have more success. The team that mix/Match will have some success and the team that goes all guard will most likely be in a sad state of affairs.

Also the team that goes all block will most likely get to guard at 16SPP faster than the all guard team gets to 16SPP so they can take block. Mix/Match will be some where in between.

Now lets go back to our lovable orc team. Orcs are really good at rookie/low TV because they start with 4 block on the roster.

On one level of team building, it is in essence a race to see who can get the most block/wrestle first. The teams that amass the most block the fastest have the higher chance of success. Once we get to 1700+TV the advantage of Block across the roster goes away because in theory the other team will have block across their roster also. Then the game switches to who can amass the most G/MB/T/PO +STATs and so forth.

**Side Note** Elf teams this dynamic is changed to who can amass the most Blodge first wins, then it switches to G /+STATS and so forth.

That is why some coaches say Mighty Blow on a BoB is a good first skill because it makes the path to Block faster.

Guard is a good skill, do not get me wrong, the issue with guard though is there are ways "around" guard, you can lessen to almost negate guard with positioning.

So, taking block/wrestle as the first skill on ANY TEAM is always a wise and good pick.

Now some teams do not have the luxury of taking guard on a normal skill roll, so, for those players, if they roll a double Guard is a very good choice.

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DarthPhysicist

Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 07, 2016 - 01:10

PainState wrote:

Now some teams do not have the luxury of taking guard on a normal skill roll, so, for those players, if they roll a double Guard is a very good choice.

I'm not sure I understand this. Guard is worth 30k TV but not 20k? Also, I get what you're saying about positioning around guard, but tell me how someone Wardancer leaps into a cage with BOB corners and has a good go of it? Guard is great for when you want to get assists on your offense primarily, but can be used quite effectively on defense with your own positioning. I'm sympathetic to giving BOBs block as a first skill and I wouldn't say anyone was wrong for doing it (it is certainly a very sound choice), however, when all four BOBs have guard with St 4, they become very tough to tangle with and allows your other players to move about and do damage. With AV 9, BOBs are more immune to isolated bullying like your random elf who manages to get guard. BOBs are also fairly cheap at only 80k and with guard at 100k and St 4 AV 9, they are quite TV lean and create frustrating formations.

Think of it this way; when you play against an Orc team or a Dwarf team, do you find yourself actively throwing blocks against a BOB or longbeard with guard at low TV? You might if you have Claw on a few players but at low TV, that is going to be slim as you've probably had to prioritize block and ball handling just to get the team off the ground.

Uedder

Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Posted: Jul 07, 2016 - 01:37

4 st4 are usually enough to hold the line if not dominate most oppositions.

Exceptions are lizards, but that's what rookie linos are for, manmarking saurii out of the game - orc ones are best for this role imo.

So, i will mostly go block first.

Exception is chaos/nurgle.

then 3 will go block and one will go mb, because you really need to get a clawpomber going asap and chaos warriors are so much better at skilling fast than most st4 because of their statline.

I do see why one could go guard first, it's a matter of preference and it's mostly about your own playstyle.

pythrr

Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Posted: Jul 07, 2016 - 02:02

i mix it up at first (with a new team). but if I'm trying to rebuild a BoB to join an eastablished team, then it will be Block then MB and GD, as I likely have enough other GDers on the team already. If I don't then it depends on need.

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Seany18

Joined: Mar 12, 2016

Posted: Jul 07, 2016 - 02:25

I think BOBs are one of the few players I prefer guard on first. Mainly I think it's due to my high estimation of guard and that the orc team starting with 4 block players to do most of the imprtant blocks (sure hands also) allows for wiggle room on 1/9s. You also want to get your blizters POMB, tackle maybe frenzy and any doubles if you roll them so every guard you can get on the BOBs you can save on the blitzers to get other skills

ph0enyx13

Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 07, 2016 - 03:37

PainState wrote:

Well if we are discussing rookie teams. The rookie teams/rosters that do the best are the ones that start with 4 players with block, then the teams that start with 2 players with block.

SO

Lets say you have a 10 team league and all the teams have 16 linos with G/S access.

You can only select as your first skill Block or Guard. Your second skill must be Block or Guard.

So you will have 3 "builds" in the league.

#1 all block on first skill
#2 all guard on first skill
#3 Mix and Match on the first skill

So based on our experience with rookie teams it is most likely that the team that goes ALL block as the first skill will have more success. The team that mix/Match will have some success and the team that goes all guard will most likely be in a sad state of affairs.

Also the team that goes all block will most likely get to guard at 16SPP faster than the all guard team gets to 16SPP so they can take block. Mix/Match will be some where in between.

Now lets go back to our lovable orc team. Orcs are really good at rookie/low TV because they start with 4 block on the roster.

On one level of team building, it is in essence a race to see who can get the most block/wrestle first. The teams that amass the most block the fastest have the higher chance of success. Once we get to 1700+TV the advantage of Block across the roster goes away because in theory the other team will have block across their roster also. Then the game switches to who can amass the most G/MB/T/PO +STATs and so forth.

**Side Note** Elf teams this dynamic is changed to who can amass the most Blodge first wins, then it switches to G /+STATS and so forth.

That is why some coaches say Mighty Blow on a BoB is a good first skill because it makes the path to Block faster.

Guard is a good skill, do not get me wrong, the issue with guard though is there are ways "around" guard, you can lessen to almost negate guard with positioning.

So, taking block/wrestle as the first skill on ANY TEAM is always a wise and good pick.

Now some teams do not have the luxury of taking guard on a normal skill roll, so, for those players, if they roll a double Guard is a very good choice.

I don't think it is as simple as that. Wood elves and undead are the 2 best teams at winning out of the box and low TV and they only start with 2 block each. Also Orcs aren't competing in terms of block from the get go, they have 4 blockers at tv 1000, but they are competing with Dorfs, Chorfs, Chaos, Nurgle, and Lizards when it comes to rolling 2 dice blocks and pushing each other around. A 1 die block with block is a 1/6 chance of failing while a 2 die without is a 1/9. So a team that dominates the number of die per block, which guard is a skill for, should maintain an advantage in terms of turn overs and positioning.

ahalfling

Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Posted: Jul 07, 2016 - 04:55

DarthPhysicist wrote:

I'm not sure I understand this. Guard is worth 30k TV but not 20k?

Guard is generally worth more to a team or a player that "shouldn't" be able to get guard than one that "should." For example, with elves, not having ST4 players or strength skill access is one of the ways the roster compensates for AG4 and speed. (Cost and armor being the others.) If you have elf stuff AND enough guards to face off physically, that's big. Black orcs (at low/mid TV) hold the line well without guard, so giving them guard is less of a priority. Giving them block, to make sure they stay up and are able to make the hits, is a higher priority.

There's also the fact that you can't save doubles for later. If your lineman rolls doubles, you can't say, "well, I'll give him block this time and guard next time." You can totally say that with black orcs.

Also also, odds are that, by the time you have one skill on all four of your BOBs, one of them has two (or more) skills, and as such may well have block AND guard. That's on top of anyone else on the team who might have guard.

_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7

(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.)