noxnoctum
Joined: Dec 08, 2014
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  Posted:
Jul 09, 2016 - 08:57 |
 
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Just any situation where you have say ~ half of each team in contact with each other in a fairly small area - I'm always a bit unsure of how to proceed and I feel like it's costing me games. Basically I'm unsure of how to work towards whatever overarching goal I have whether it be causing the most damage/getting the ball/disengaging (depending on the situation/nature of opposing team). I am only playing Delf at the moment. I just have trouble coordinating all the blocks in the best way possible and I'm never quite sure how to approach it and just go at it haphazardly.
Just as an example of what I mean by being confused about what objective to work towards -- If I'm trying to break a cage, I try to focus on knocking out one of the corners and getting someone in contact with the ball carrier. If I'm trying to block a STR4 guy, I am trying to get 3 of my guys in contact with him. In like manner to those situations - what do I need to be trying to achieve in scrum situations with loads of blocks every turn? |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 09, 2016 - 09:08 |
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Dark Elves should not be getting involved in big scrums (unless it's a lighter team than them, and even then it's probably not a great idea).
Dark Elves as an offensive play should keep moving. If you're not moving forward, you should be looking for angles to get a better position. On defence, you want to look for a 'pinch'. A pinch is a position where you set up a play of to then pressure the ball. This means you are maneuvering or letting your opponent move to a position where you can put pressure on taking the ball, rather than locking up face to face.
Once you are ready (or forced to) start your pinch, then yes you lock up, but under your terms and with the objective of taking or spilling the ball. Rather than it becoming a punch fest.
Outside of the pinch, unless you're against lower AV teams (even then Norse and Zons will want to get in lots of blocks per game), disengage. Block or dodge your way free. |
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paradocks
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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Jul 09, 2016 - 09:29 |
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I think it's such a complex game that very few people have ever mastered it. If it were easy to learn what you're asking then everyone would be a top player, but it takes many people years to know exactly what to do at every point in the game. For myself 12 years on Fumbbl and I'm still terrible at offense and poor on defense |
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noxnoctum
Joined: Dec 08, 2014
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Jul 10, 2016 - 02:44 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | Dark Elves should not be getting involved in big scrums (unless it's a lighter team than them, and even then it's probably not a great idea).
Dark Elves as an offensive play should keep moving. If you're not moving forward, you should be looking for angles to get a better position. On defence, you want to look for a 'pinch'. A pinch is a position where you set up a play of to then pressure the ball. This means you are maneuvering or letting your opponent move to a position where you can put pressure on taking the ball, rather than locking up face to face.
Once you are ready (or forced to) start your pinch, then yes you lock up, but under your terms and with the objective of taking or spilling the ball. Rather than it becoming a punch fest.
Outside of the pinch, unless you're against lower AV teams (even then Norse and Zons will want to get in lots of blocks per game), disengage. Block or dodge your way free. |
Yeah I'm not trying to get in a scrum but sometimes it just happens -- for example a tactic a lot of Chaos teams seem to use is to trap my guys and then batter them to death.
Could you give a more detailed explanation of how to pull off a pinch? I think I understand the basic concept, but not how to execute it with a larger number of players. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Jul 10, 2016 - 03:05 |
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Doesn't really matter what race you play. If you get pushbacks you don't follow up and keep your distance. If you get pows you follow up given there is nobody else next to you.
What you don't want is to give your opponent blocks.
Generally avoid scrums by setting up loose screens. Ideally don't allow your opponent to even get to your cage. If he does you should have set up a few players nearby to extend the cage to give you some sort of escape route.
If you have superior strength it can be worthwhile to stay in contact to draw opponent players somewhere. Those will hopefully miss somewhere else, but doing that of course still threatens your players health. Nearby players not in contact can prevent assists.
If your team is stacked with guard you likely want to generate scrums. If both teams are stacked with guard both teams will be fairly proficient at blocking and there is no point in engaging.
But assuming you can overpower your opponent simply try to position the guarders within multiple tacklezones of opponent players and try to create complex situations that leave players in your zones after a blocking war.
Generally keep in mind that any player can block only once so you can easily stack multiple players against one if you already got somebody next to an opponent.
To avoid this behavior being used against you seek out the fights you can win and dodge from the fights where you can't gain an advantage without drawing much more people in. Keep in mind that you can integrate dodging players into the game by generating assists. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 10, 2016 - 03:47 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | | Doesn't really matter what race you play. |
I'm going to disagree with this. I think it matters a lot what race you play. Which you kind of say later on in your post.
The higher the AV the more likely you are to follow up. I will say it's something I don't actually like doing. I like to play exactly how Wreckage describes. However if you can swamp a team where trading one for one will leave you an advantage.
Orcs with a ST advantage. Dwarfs having block and guard, it works. Even AV8 can do it to a certain extent............not my cup of team mind. However I've often had say human teams with AV8 and cheaper players swamp Norse on 1-1 trading off.
| Wreckage wrote: | | Keep in mind that you can integrate dodging players into the game by generating assists. |
This is pretty important with elven play. When to dodge, when to block out. Dodging out will most likely give you better positioning. Blocking out gives the opportunity to knock an opposing player over. However it'll generally cost you the position of 2 players.
| noxnoctum wrote: |
Could you give a more detailed explanation of how to pull off a pinch? I think I understand the basic concept, but not how to execute it with a larger number of players. |
Well it depends on your teams make up. A pinch is basically when you decide to try and take the ball. Hopefully you have your opposing team in a position that if the ball is spilt, you have a good opportunity to pick it up or prevent your opponents from picking it up again.
So generally this means you have pinned a cage down. Have your team in a position where you have separated a lot of players from the opposing team and will now pressure the cage. Tying down players one for one means they can't move, whilst your cage breakers go to work.
In this case you will have to go into player to player contact, giving up blocks on the next turn. However all of this is to pressure the ball until finally it causes a turn over. Pinching like this is a fairly common defensive play for DE. Especially if you have a leaper or a high ag player to rip into a cage. |
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TortalVor
Joined: Jan 23, 2016
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Jul 10, 2016 - 04:23 |
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For what its worth. I would say for elves, when you are involved in a scrum then the strategy should always be focused on getting to the ball and getting it out of there. Elves and Skaven excel in open play and typically meet Chaos death in drawn out bashing contests so all things being equal you should play to that strength.
As far as tactics to achieve, every scrum is different BUT a key factor is availability of Guard, a single AG 4 with Guard can often dodge to where they really need to be to help with that 2D block or change a negative to 1D. Having a guy next to the BC typically isn't worth much as they can be blocked or blitzed away. For a cage break attempt to really have teeth you are wanting to get two tackle zones on the BC without them being able to easily block both of them off. This gets you a dodge attempt or chance against the BC next turn. Again, if you have a blodger with SF then what you need to do to pressure the BC and create opportunities changes. If you can't get real pressure on the BC then you might want to just move back a single square around the cage and see if a better opportunity presents itself. While he might be able to keep the BC safe in the cage. If he can't move that cage forward much then you still win  . |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Jul 10, 2016 - 09:42 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | Wreckage wrote: | | Doesn't really matter what race you play. |
I'm going to disagree with this. I think it matters a lot what race you play. Which you kind of say later on in your post. |
No, we are in fundamental disagreement. The stats dictate the style of play not the race. The stats aren't tied to any particular race. They are fluent, change, depend on lots of factors. Some quirks can be addressed as races such as Hypnotic Gaze as it is unique to Vampires or mass leap as it is so unusual that it would be not economic on somebody else but frogs but not when it comes to blocking. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Jul 10, 2016 - 10:11 |
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Do Dwarfs stats change enough to change their style of play? I don't think so. Sure, playing killers will change their style of course. I think a certain amount of man marking even if you are a lean man marker is prudent. Dwarf play, you do give up blocks. Yes this is because of the Dwarf teams stats, but Dwarf stats are not really fluid.
Or are you saying you man mark due to the 4 3 2 9 TS/Block/Tackle stats rather than they're called Dwarfs. If that's your point, it's kind of not really a point. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Jul 10, 2016 - 10:24 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | Do Dwarfs stats change enough to change their style of play? I don't think so. Sure, playing killers will change their style of course. I think a certain amount of man marking even if you are a lean man marker is prudent. Dwarf play, you do give up blocks. Yes this is because of the Dwarf teams stats, but Dwarf stats are not really fluid.
Or are you saying you man mark due to the 4 3 2 9 TS/Block/Tackle stats rather than they're called Dwarfs. If that's your point, it's kind of not really a point. |
Yes, because of hte stats and skills. And it's one of the most important points. But I think high AV is not a good reason to go into contact. AV can mitigate the dangers a bit but doesn't fundamentally change things. I'd not generally recommend marking with dwarves based on their starting skills and stats.
But as I explained earlier Guard is a real difference maker. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 10, 2016 - 10:34 |
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| Wreckage wrote: | I'd not generally recommend marking with dwarves based on their starting skills and stats.
But as I explained earlier Guard is a real difference maker. |
Your first point isn't worth continuing for me.
The quoted bit is interesting though. I'm a light man marker too. I tend to feel I should mark more with Dwarfs. As an example mark an AV8 vanilla lino with a blocker. Giving up the block to cause pressure.
I wonder how many Dwarf coaches would agree with you. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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Jul 10, 2016 - 10:38 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | Wreckage wrote: | I'd not generally recommend marking with dwarves based on their starting skills and stats.
But as I explained earlier Guard is a real difference maker. |
Your first point isn't worth continuing for me.
The quoted bit is interesting though. I'm a light man marker too. I tend to feel I should mark more with Dwarfs. As an example mark an AV8 vanilla lino with a blocker. Giving up the block to cause pressure.
I wonder how many Dwarf coaches would agree with you. |
Other factors are to consider as well. If my opponent doesn't have Block players I may draw some 2d blocks fails out. Then it could be worthwhile but one on one if my opponent has Block works poorly in my experience. It will just result in getting outnumbered anyways. And when you get outnumbered with Dwarves you are in real trouble. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jul 10, 2016 - 10:55 |
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I think the golden rule of contact is to not to do what your opponent wants and to always retain tempo. I know that sounds too easy to say, but as vast generalisations go, it's not bad.
If I am defending against Dark Elves, what I want to see is a tight cage and a formation where I can create contact on a bunch of players I know you'll want to move next turn (cage corners, screen players, maybe even the ball), but not so much that I over-commit and get left behind. Especially in these days of coaches undervaluing re-rolls, making my opponent constantly move away from contact or get quagmired in a block off is going to bleed his position. What I do not want to see is a glorious Elfstall; my opponent using the whole field to hide in, double screens, anything that limits me to a low level of contact and makes me spread out - moving away from the scrum.
When I am attacking against Dark Elves, what I want to see is half hearted 'chipping the corner' off of cages, a willingness to get sucked in and a lack of patience and discipline. I likely cannot score against 11 well positioned, highly disciplined Elves if I stand off. I need to create contact, sideline one or two away from the action or even remove the odd one. I want you to attack my drive on my terms, not on yours.
So, both ways against Dark Elves, I probably want the scrum, you do not. Managing that contact is going to win or lose you the game, most of the time. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 10, 2016 - 11:05 |
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I guess another important point is defense vs offense. On defense giving up position isn't as lethal since you can't expect to stop the score anyways. So taking risky strategies is better.
As a result scrums are usually initiated by the defense. In fact I'd say it's very rare that somebody initiates contact on offense even if he plays predestined teams like Orc or Khemri. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Jul 10, 2016 - 11:19 |
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If you do not initiate contact with your Orcs or Khemri on your drive against Dark Elves, you will fail to score every time something quite remarkable doesn't happen. If you are not making the DE roll dice or encouraging blocks to happen, how do you intend to advance through a passive, disciplined approach? Are you just praying they commit to your cage and do your job for you?
I think there's a difference between 'the scrum' and 'any contact' that we'd do well to observe lest we have the OP huddled down on halfway for the rest of his Blood Bowling career; afraid to put any model in a tacklezone.  |
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