Banjoclan
Joined: Sep 10, 2016
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 Posted:
Jan 23, 2017 - 23:59 |
 
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| Wuhan wrote: | | drop the +av hobgob = 70k? 70k for 6338? |
Rats. I skilled him up at the same time. I didn't really know what to pick for him either. Should I have taken MA? Dodge? |
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Banjoclan
Joined: Sep 10, 2016
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Jan 24, 2017 - 00:30 |
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The bbtactics site didn't have an entry for Chaos Dwarf Minotaurs so I was using the Chaos Minotaur build. I'm thinking that maybe tentacles for him then instead of dodge. |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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Jan 24, 2017 - 00:53 |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jan 24, 2017 - 10:21 |
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| Banjoclan wrote: | | Wuhan wrote: | | drop the +av hobgob = 70k? 70k for 6338? |
Rats. I skilled him up at the same time. I didn't really know what to pick for him either. Should I have taken MA? Dodge? |
If that roll was 5,5 then you had a lot of options far better than +AV.
Dodge, Leader, Guard are all decent options for a double.
Dodge doesn't tie him into any one role, and you can later mould him into a blodge ball-carrier or general purpose player if you want.
Leader gives you a cheap reroll, but might leave you wanting to "protect" the hob (you shouldn't).
Guard is guard.
For a +Stat, +MV beats +AV for a hobber, especially since in this case he'd become the fastest player on your team before go for it rolls are accounted for.
If you take the +MV you have some options - skill him to block+surehands and carry with him (firing the other hobgoblin afterwards) or skill to make him a sacker, as +MV would be a heavy investment on a fouler.
Either way - I'd suggest if you're unsure of skill choices, post the threads before you pick them! That way you don't need to create unnecessary tickets later 
[edit] One thing to consider is that your bulls are low skill and some "long-term" skill/stat choices mean that you either have to score with the hobgoblins, protect them, or otherwise make maneuvers which may actually weaken your team short-term (in terms of on-pitch efficiency). You have to weigh up whether that is acceptable to you too. For this reason, there's some who'd just skip the double/stat for the time being. |
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Desultory
Joined: Jun 24, 2008
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Jan 24, 2017 - 10:51 |
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I don't really understand the benefit of Pro - maybe from an older ruleset?
At this point an MA4 mino worth 210k... I don't think he's worth that team value. (I'd much rather play 200k TV lower teams teams without him.)
But I am the type of coach who doesn't take normal Mino's on Chaos and Chaos Dwarf, so I am already slightly biassed.
If you oculd change the Pro skill to Tentacles though, I could see how MA4 isn't such a problem. |
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Last edited by Desultory on %b %24, %2017 - %10:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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Jan 24, 2017 - 10:56 |
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Pro is generally great on big guys, since they only have a 50% chance to use a team RR anyway. So, if you use your big guys actively (and be it only for moving and blocking once in a while), Pro is a built-in RR for every turn. It's particularly useful to re-roll a failed nega-trait roll and to have another chance at better block results (even if non-critical).
However, the less you activate the big guy, the less useful pro is. And IF he keeps the -ma mino, he's probably going to be a (great) road block, not doing much anyway (since Frenzy easily gets him into a worse position). |
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Desultory
Joined: Jun 24, 2008
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Jan 24, 2017 - 11:04 |
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| Rabe wrote: | Pro is generally great on big guys, since they only have a 50% chance to use a team RR anyway. So, if you use your big guys actively (and be it only for moving and blocking once in a while), Pro is a built-in RR for every turn. It's particularly useful to re-roll a failed nega-trait roll and to have another chance at better block results (even if non-critical).
However, the less you activate the big guy, the less useful pro is. And IF he keeps the -ma mino, he's probably going to be a (great) road block, not doing much anyway (since Frenzy easily gets him into a worse position). |
Interesting. I'm not convinced the small increase in chance of making each action successful with PRO is worth the skill, given the alternatives in this case. But I don't think any one is arguing against that.
Pro would actually be more useful without block..to occasionally prevent those bothdown/skull turnover times.
In regards to a tentacles roadblock:
I have a similar very expensive roadblock in my nurgle team: https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=11485562
The price of one player becomes less of a problem as the team gets higher in TV. I still debate firing every match he rolls really stupid more than average. A wild animal would be worse as he would waste blitzes to get in position. But a Frenzy, horns, Tentacles player would open some strange options not available usually.
If you can swap for tentacles I'd be keen to keep him for fun. |
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kwèk
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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Jan 24, 2017 - 11:34 |
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I would fire the Minotaur... and not hire one till much later in your progression.
I would fire the +AV Hobgoblin... cause buying armour for cheap slaves is just silly
I would fire the beast of nurgle... cause -MA and Nigling injury just doesnt fit my bill
And when we are add, lets fire a coach for choosing break tackle over block on first skill on a bull centaur.
Man... I also have a list of players I've seen on halfling teams... who I would all fire. Loads of treeman that are way to expensive for their team to maintain.
Just nudge me when you need more stuff kicked out of your team. I fire the lot of them. Just give me acces to your account... if it feels less painfull for you. I'll clean it all up. |
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It is a bit embarrassing to have been concerned with the human problem all one's life and find at the end that one has no more to offer by way of advice than 'try to be a little kinder'.
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jan 24, 2017 - 11:35 |
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| Desultory wrote: | I don't really understand the benefit of Pro - maybe from an older ruleset?
At this point an MA4 mino worth 210k... I don't think he's worth that team value. (I'd much rather play 200k TV lower teams teams without him.)
But I am the type of coach who doesn't take normal Mino's on Chaos and Chaos Dwarf, so I am already slightly biassed.
If you oculd change the Pro skill to Tentacles though, I could see how MA4 isn't such a problem. |
As Rabe said, decreased chance of "doing nothing" each turn.
But it was the "block then pro" on doubles that made me think this was a "chaos mino" guide, since a chaos team can do that and end up with a block/pro/claw/stand firm/guard/tentacles (or whatever) Mino on all singles after the 2 doubles.
A chaos team can use something like that both early and late game - early since for a while, a block mino who picks up both claw and pro is going to be a quite heavy hitter, who'll rack up spp quite comfortably. Since the chaos team doesn't start off with a reliable blitzer (and everyone else needs to take block as well as mb too), using the blitz doesn't hurt so much and pro is often a 50/50 to reroll a 2+ instead of 50/50 to reroll a 4+ to move.
But in basic terms, "pro" is the choice for an active big guy. Chaos might use that early on, CDorfs don't really need to and probably don't want to either in a lot of cases once the skills on the blockers and bulls begin to roll in.
That's especially exasperated by the Chorfotaur's skill access - he won't gain spp as easily as the chaos mino since block/claw/pro would be three doubles, (tents later on top would be four), he doesn't really want to be blitzing quite quickly since all blockers start with block and at least one bull usually gets there fast too, and while on a Chaos team the Mino is just Chief Unreliable among the Unreliable Masses, in a Chaos Dwarf team he quickly becomes the Unruly Instigator of Turnovers if you use him offensively.
He does have his uses, Chaos Dwarves really can have difficulty playing against high ST teams for a while, and the Mino helps out there. But he really is an expensive investment and he only gets pricier as the team moves on, because he's surrounded by players who either are value for their roles (blockers, hobgoblins) or have much better upside (Bulls). Wild Animal at least means he's a functional roadblock even when he rolls 1, but av8 and frenzy can remain an issue.
The last time I took a big guy on a Chorf team it was a troll. |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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Jan 24, 2017 - 11:57 |
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Two doubles in two skills, pro and a move bust on a Minotard in a Chorf team? 
This guy will not only aggravate the Pure Disciples of Proper Skill Choice and Correct Team Build by his very existence, but nuffle will smile and bless him with extraordinary performances (good, bad, and a fist full of ugly). He'll also get you games on the finder.
He is awesome. |
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NickNutria
Joined: Jul 25, 2006
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Jan 24, 2017 - 16:06 |
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Keep the mino. Pro isn't a bad choice on a big guy, as others said it's a build in rr for him. Also pro as a skill isn't as bad as everybody suggests. It works quite good to rr 2d-blocks that only result in a push (if your guys got block). If you spam pro (for instance on norse teams), you've got 11 possible rr every turn, so you would get much more pows and much more cas on such a team. Pro without block isn't useful. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Jan 25, 2017 - 15:46 |
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| NickNutria wrote: | | Keep the mino. Pro isn't a bad choice on a big guy, as others said it's a build in rr for him. Also pro as a skill isn't as bad as everybody suggests. It works quite good to rr 2d-blocks that only result in a push (if your guys got block). If you spam pro (for instance on norse teams), you've got 11 possible rr every turn, so you would get much more pows and much more cas on such a team. Pro without block isn't useful. |
If you use pro in such a fashion on a big guy (to reroll pushes), then you're increasing his risk factor, which is somewhat counter-productive to why most people would take pro on a big in the first place.
Cdorks are a very reliable team and solid consistency tends to be more rewarding over the course of a drive than relying on a big guy constantly rolling 2+ and hoping he has a superlative cas rate.
And this mino is ma4. Almost every argument for what he brings to a cdork team offensively: frenzy, sideline threat, can move a line back an extra square, is somewhat offset by the fact he's in a position where already the potential for extra dice have risen by virtue of his perm.
The advantages for Cdorfs on defensive/roadblock use is that you can expose a mino more freely than a hobgoblin (and in doing so his st5 means you can protect hobgoblins more easily). He can also be used to mark 2 St3 players fairly comfortably, especially effective against non-dodge linemen. Against stronger teams you can't expose him so simply, but his extra ST means your turns might not consist of mostly standing up blockers.
I'd actually like it if we got input from TT/res coaches on mino use for cdorfs, because I know they get some use at even 1.1M and I'm pretty sure not everyone using them is just hoping they cas half a team, or occupy a tree for 16 turns  |
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