| Poll |
| Should FUMBBL adopt 2 minute turns as default? |
| Yes |
|
13% |
[ 20 ] |
| No |
|
73% |
[ 111 ] |
| Only in certain leagues |
|
13% |
[ 20 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 151 |
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
 Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 18:45 |
 
|
| Christer wrote: |
I genuinely don't think so in this case.
Look at it from the perspective of people who get into Blood Bowl by buying the bb2020 set. They read the rules, play a couple of games with their friends, after which those other friends fade off or a pandemic hits the world and you're unable to play tabletop. You find your way to FUMBBL and all of a sudden someone times you out, and you have no reasonable way to know what that's about.
I think maintaining rules parity is important so that people joining the site will know what to expect (apart from their own misconceptions about the rules).
Add to that the fact that timeouts are among the most common ways people get upset at each-other (meaning staff has to deal with issues stemming from a timeout), and a complex thing to manage. Consider how you'd act on the tabletop if your opponent had to go for a bathroom break or deal with the proverbial cat on fire (important phonecall or whatever). There is no effective online equivalent where you can't be sure if the opponent left the table. |
I admit that I don't play many online games, but right now I can't think of any that don't have a time limit.
They are all automatic.
I would have thought that people would know what to expect because that is how everything else works.
People have to read the site rules when signing up. They have to read them again when the rules change. So they should have some idea.
Most games have a visible indicator that time is ticking down. Even if it only appears in the last 30 seconds or so. The clock on cyanide is one of the few advantages that it has over Fumbbl IMO.
Are we going to recommend that people stick to 4 mins? What happens if they don't? Do we report them for "time stalling". When can we report them? When they go past 4m for the third time? When they go past 5m? 6m?
Are we allowed to tell them to "get a move on"?
At least as it stands people know to aim for inside 4mins. If they go over it is usually not by much. I've never timed anyone out. I'm pretty slow. Many of my opponents are fairly slow. But we get it done.
If people think that there is no limit, they are going to take the Mick. |
_________________
O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
|
Dominik
Joined: Oct 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 19:19 |
|
| Mingoose wrote: | | DrDeath wrote: | | I tried a few games on BB2 and absolutely hated it, mainly for this reason. |
Let's be honest though, BB2 is just terrible in every way vs. FUMBBL. |
Who in his right mind wants to see the same cutscenes over and over again? That was the reason why I did not even try this game. |
|
|
JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 19:23 |
|
| DrDeath wrote: | | The Blood Bowl 2 ladders shifted to 2 minutes, and that was a massive mistake I think - it resulted in lower activations. |
No it didn't. |
|
|
lautrehamon
Joined: Nov 18, 2017
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 19:25 |
|
I'm pretty sure I never used that time out button in 3,5k games, even against really slow opponents ; timing out a beginner is certain unfriendly and can harm the trafic long term.
Still, I'm glad there is a time button here ; I'm afraid no official time limit will result sometimes in really long games for no tactical reasons. There's a risk of more unfinished games too, or maybe less games if we need to plan for 1h45/2hours instead of 60/75minutes. |
|
|
Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 20:00 |
|
Wishing to play under time pressure is just fine, and I think the one rock/ 30s is brilliant for online play, but thinking that You can play the game to 4 minute level in 2 minutes is very arrogant and probably false. When I play 2 minute turns on BB2 both myself and my opponents regularly run out of time and those turns and others are rarely played to a high standard.
If You think time pressure is an important part of the game - good for You. I think 4 minutes on average is pretty well balanced between time consumption and quality of play. Probably because it is the way We have played for 25 years |
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 20:47 |
|
In my opinion, 1 minute is too little and 4 too much for online play with FUMBBL client.
So, either 2 or 3 minutes, 2 is possible but some hard turns would be played too fast (imagine figuring a chainpush involving Vampires and Blood Lusts + planning ahead the Thralls' positions and movements, for example, or playing Goblins or Ogres and having to adjust the turn as the Trolls/Ogres fail their tests) and the gameplay could lose quality as Tripleskull said, so 3 minutes limit seems the ideal compromise to me.
The important thing to consider is that some teams force their coach to take more time, not because the coach is dumb, but due to the nature of their players (negatraits, low movement, low AG, many ST 1 players needing to gang up to get a 2d block etc.).
Even a very good coach can't easily predict what will happen AND deal with it with just 1 minute turn if he plays with Ogres or Vampires.
I know that playing speed is important, but on the other hand this is a turn-based game, not a real time game, positioning and planning should be more important than fast clicking. |
|
|
Welsh_Cthulu
Joined: Aug 06, 2020
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 21:06 |
|
| Dominik wrote: | | Mingoose wrote: | | DrDeath wrote: | | I tried a few games on BB2 and absolutely hated it, mainly for this reason. |
Let's be honest though, BB2 is just terrible in every way vs. FUMBBL. |
Who in his right mind wants to see the same cutscenes over and over again? That was the reason why I did not even try this game. |
You can turn them off |
|
|
JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:04 |
|
I find it interesting that the vast majority of coaches declare to have timeouted their opponents no more than once every 100 games or so (or even less than that, with many declaring *never*), and still there's this idea that removing the ability to timeout is going to make fumbbl unplayable all of a sudden, as if people are playing quick now due to some terror of being timeouted at every occasion.
What is going to happen, should the timeout rule be removed, is that you will have to have an additional 2 mins of patience every 100 games. Is that such a big deal? |
_________________
 |
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:07 |
|
When those additional 2 minutes cost me 1 hour of game because my opponent manages to pull out a play he would have not been able to perform, yes, it's a big deal.
I have been there, I didn't time out a noob because I wanted to be kind, lost the game, regretted I didn't time him out.
Not just a matter of patience, but a matter of winning or losing a game.
Even a single action an opponent can do in those 5 seconds after 4 minutes can make a big difference. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %21, %2020 - %22:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
|
JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:10 |
|
| MattDakka wrote: | When those additional 2 minutes cost me 1 hour of game because my opponent manages to pull out a play he would have not been able to perform, yes, it's a big deal.
I have been there, I didn't time out a noob because I wanted to be kind, lost the game, regretted I didn't time him out. |
OH MY GOD YOU LOST TO A NOOB ONE OF YOUR SIX THOUSAND GAMES BECAUSE YOU WERE NICE???
That's a big deal indeed. How can you live with the regret?
Seriously matt, I'm not out to get you. But for Christ's sake, how about some perspective?
Also, the lesson here is "play better and give him no chance to win", not "dammit I knew I shouldn't have been kind". |
_________________
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:13 |
|
Well, I think it's nice to be kind with opponents when playing, but I have to be kind with myself as well, and since I have to live with myself every istant of my life, better to be kind with myself, if I have to choose (tried to be kind, but just ruined my day when I lost).
Not my fault if opponent is super slow and plays in a competitive division.
About playing well: due to nature of the game, a single sequence of good dice in the last turn can change the result. For example, if I cage and my opponent leaps and -2 pows my ball carrier, then takes 6 minutes to move the rest of his team he has an advantage.
Since I can't control dice, the focus should be on time, which can be controlled.
And by the way, being faster can be considered being better. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %21, %2020 - %22:%Aug; edited 3 times in total |
|
JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:17 |
|
Well, strictly speaking, if it's not in the rules it's not in the rules. So if it's an optional rule and the league manager (BigC) decides against it, the point is moot.
We can argue all night long if timeouting someone is a jerk move or a legitimate move, IF the rule is there.
But once the rule is not there any more, it seems that arguing that it "should" be is less about the adherence to the rules and more about the "I don't want to play against slower people because my time is precious". Which is an ok stance but has absolutely no importance whatsoever rules-wise. |
_________________
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:19 |
|
Yes, I talked about the time out as currently is implemented in the client, no clue about the future. |
|
|
JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:21 |
|
| MattDakka wrote: | | And by the way, being faster can be considered being better. |
That's a really arbitrary way to look at it.
Do you want to play your best against my best or "your best in 4 mins" against "my best in 4 mins"?
I'd argue that if I'm slower than you and you want to play with the 4 mins rule, you are artificially creating a barrier to keep my best out and your best in, so you can get an arbitrary advantage.
Only if you win "your absolute best against my absolute best", then you are better than me. |
_________________
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:24 |
|
My best in 4 minutes vs your best in 4 minutes.
The barrier is created by your own slowness, not by me.
Get faster, it's not an arbitrary advantage, as long as it is in the rules.
If the rules remove the time limit then ok. But I might lose interest in games taking ages to be played (been there vs very good coach, I almost falled asleep). |
|
|
|
|
| |
Secret League Americ...
Search
