| Poll |
| Should FUMBBL adopt 2 minute turns as default? |
| Yes |
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13% |
[ 20 ] |
| No |
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73% |
[ 111 ] |
| Only in certain leagues |
|
13% |
[ 20 ] |
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| Total Votes : 151 |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:27 |
 
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| MattDakka wrote: | My best in 4 minutes vs your best in 4 minutes.
The barrier is created by your own slowness, not by me.
Get faster, it's not an arbitrary advantage, as long as it is in the rules.
If the rules remove the time limit then ok. But I might lose interest in games taking ages to be played (been there vs very good coach, I almost falled asleep). |
Would you play considerably slower, should the 4 mins rules be removed?
Do you think a lot of people would?
All that would change, is that you have to endure the *extremely occasional* slow player (or even more probable, the *extremely occasional* single slow turn).
There's an evident difference between what is going to happen and "a game taking ages to be played".
I smell exaggeration all over this thread, to be honest. Not just from you, just to be clear. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:31 |
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If there is no time limit, better not to play at all.
People could just stop playing without any penalty and no admin could force them to resume the game. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 22:31 |
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I actually like 'your best in 4 minutes against my best in 4 minutes'. I specifically do NOT want to timeout when there are real life issues - and online we can't tell, so simply removing the timeout feature (and keeping time wasting complaints as a reported problem) is, for me, the best way to go.
But, as mentioned, MOST turns are easily doable in 2-3 minutes by most people. Therefore, for me, I LIKE the idea that one of the tools at a coaches disposal is 'make the entire game so messy and crazy, with so many zany skills all near the ball, that you CAN'T figure it out in 4 minutes'. In particular this most often comes up with skaven/pro elf/slann games; and I like the idea that you have to throw caution to the wind and take A move, instead of the BEST move.
I like the idea that a time limit is imposed - not as a harsh strict measure to make you lose, but as a way of saturating your opponent, UNDER the assumption that almost all turns should be playable within 2-3 minutes.
As a comparison, I played a 2 hour game the other day (and no turns were more than 3 minutes, and almost none were more than 2 minutes) - i was exhausted by the end, and making really horrible mistakes because of it. That to me is what the 4 minute rule SHOULD replicate - you getting exhausted and making mistakes. But since its a game, and we do have a certain expectation for how long a game is, you can't actually make it 'play so long you get exhausted and make mistakes', and so instead it's 'play so fast you can't keep up and make mistakes'. That to me is enjoyable. |
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Welsh_Cthulu
Joined: Aug 06, 2020
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| Posted:
Aug 21, 2020 - 23:18 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | | I actually like 'your best in 4 minutes against my best in 4 minutes'. I specifically do NOT want to timeout when there are real life issues - and online we can't tell, so simply removing the timeout feature (and keeping time wasting complaints as a reported problem) is, for me, the best way to go. |
I am absolutely amazed that people want to be SO fluffy playing Blood Bowl online as to not have turn limits. It's madness.
It 100% will not work. It belies the differences between real life play and online play. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 00:00 |
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| Welsh_Cthulu wrote: | | Nelphine wrote: | | I actually like 'your best in 4 minutes against my best in 4 minutes'. I specifically do NOT want to timeout when there are real life issues - and online we can't tell, so simply removing the timeout feature (and keeping time wasting complaints as a reported problem) is, for me, the best way to go. |
I am absolutely amazed that people want to be SO fluffy playing Blood Bowl online as to not have turn limits. It's madness.
It 100% will not work. It belies the differences between real life play and online play. |
The point is, the rule was there for ages and we barely if ever felt like it was there. It won't really change much, probably. People have their speed, and will keep having their speed. Quick players won't become slower all of a sudden, and the overwhelming majority of coaches here stay under the 3 minutes mark for like 95% of their turns. That won't change. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 02:25 |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 05:18 |
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The 2 min turn limit for general play will definitely not work. Far too short. But Christer is practically trolling his own site to suggest not having turn limits at all.
As Koadah and others mention you will get some people wandering off for minutes and then coming back while you wait to take their turn. People already push it. Not a lot perhaps, but even if it happened one in 20 matches it would be off-putting.
The NAF will keep time limits on games with new rules. I'm sure fumbbl will do the same. (Of course tabletop limits usually well over 2 hours due to moving models and rolling dice).
I suppose if you keep that people can leave a game without penalty after 90 minutes it could be done. But would still be annoying. |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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Foad
Joined: Sep 02, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 07:15 |
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It's a meta game choice.
Partly. Kind of. Sort of. Maybe...
At 1000-1500 TV, 2-3 minute turns should be fine - but at higher TV (2500) there are going to be long turns when teams of this size run into each other.
I play in the SWL where we don't use the timeout function (no limits), and a number of players enjoy this as it gives them the time to play a turn and think it through as the turn develops.
Whether this is good or bad is subjective, and there is a personal choice if this is the kind of play for you.
As a site default, the rule states that turn are 4 minutes and any deviation is arbitrary. Much could be said for players that don't take the time to think the turn through and reassess on the fly, insofar as that they may not be giving the game the respect that it deserves.
It's a personal choice, and I'm not going to enforce players to "play better" against me, but whilst I'd be fine to play a 2 minute turn timed "blitz chess" style game I'd be against moving the timeout button as a default.
As for the timeout button being available but not used, it comes down to etiquette. If you're playing a good natured game with friendly banter I'd suggest that the button may not be used as the enjoyment drawn from the game is from the competition and not merely the result. That said if you're in a competitive division, where the button is in play, there is no place for regret if it gets pressed by your opponent. |
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Midas_Touch
Joined: Dec 08, 2018
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 08:42 |
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its probably impossible, and if not impossible more work for christer .But could a button be implimented on game load up where you have the options of 2 3 or 4 min turns and the opponents and yourself have to select 1 to adhere to during that specific match |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 08:43 |
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Bottom line for me personally is - if it ain't broke don't fix it
The 4 minutes we have now is more than enough time. Most people I play take about 2 -3 mins a turn and even with interruption like the postman knocking on the door (which according to Matt means you arent dedicated enough...  or maybe the postman is not dedicated enough...), but even with interruption like that it's still rare that coaches go over 4 mins.
So rather than create controversy just leave it be |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 10:28 |
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This is another one of those threads on this topic that goes on forever and no-one really convinces anyone else to change their mind. = internets, I suppose. My turn.
On the one hand, if it's not printed in the book, the consistent thing is to remove it, for all of the reasons people used to argue it should be used. We had many years of no timer at all back in the olden times, and I have to say I don't remember irc chat being full of people complaining about slow play. Maybe the admins got some grief, I don't know. Only when any form of timer was introduced did it become a hot topic, to the best of my recollection.
I've never been a fan of the timer or it's implementation, so the rulebook properly dropping it makes me happy. All that said, I recognise that we all have lives to lead and this is the internet where attention spans are not infinite, so someone taking 8 minutes a turn, every turn just because they can isn't going to create good feeling. Perhaps reverting to the global relief timer is the right move. Give people a nominal 4 minutes, give them an additional 15 minutes to dip into if they have to answer the door or have a long turn, and when it's gone, you are automatically stopped after 4 minutes. If your cat is on fire, exit the bloody client and treat it as a disconnection.
On a topic where the best you can hope to achieve is annoying the fewest people, that compromise might work. I mean - I'd personally be happy to see the end of it in any form for good (and I've never been timed out), but I appreciate playing on FUMBBL probably isn't what the rules are intended for, and a new player can get his head around not taking years over playing quickly enough? |
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Muff2n
Joined: May 20, 2017
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 12:10 |
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| Quote: | | I actually like 'your best in 4 minutes against my best in 4 minutes'. I specifically do NOT want to timeout when there are real life issues - and online we can't tell, so simply removing the timeout feature (and keeping time wasting complaints as a reported problem) is, for me, the best way to go. |
+1 and everything else Nelphine said. I have found 4 minute turns to work well on Fumbbl.
Also, while I don't stand by everything Matt said, I think he has a point complaining about people playing at work. I would not want to play TT with someone who was working at the same time. 'Do you want to use stand firm?' '...Give me a minute while I reply to this email.' |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 12:34 |
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| Garion wrote: |
The 4 minutes we have now is more than enough time. Most people I play take about 2 -3 mins a turn and even with interruption like the postman knocking on the door (which according to Matt means you arent dedicated enough... or maybe the postman is not dedicated enough...) |
Either play when the postman doesn't work, for example in the evening, or play when you can be disturbed, and face the consequences. Both options are fine.
I don't think you can't find a free hour to play a BB game without interruptions in a whole day.
Most modern online games have a timer for obvious reasons, otherwise people can waste time easily.
About people playing from work: I faced quite often some coaches playing from work (or having a kind of work requiring to answer to the phone frequently, abusing the site rule that prevent to enforce a time out if you say you have something to do in real life).
If you are working, it's not an emergency. You chose to play in a wrong moment of your day.
If I work, I don't play, it's brutally simple.
Keeping people locked in a game for more time than necessary is rude, especially because they have no choice, once the game is started. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 12:44 |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 22, 2020 - 13:30 |
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| koadah wrote: | Who is "we" Jan?
Your "we" is not my "we". |
I thought that my statement was broad enough not to bring this objection into play. I was evidently wrong and apparently the timeout option has defined your fumbbl experience so far. My bad. |
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