PhilMan
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Aug 06, 2004 - 19:43 |
 
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in regards to the 1 or 2 critter balls, i think you must have 2, only having 1 big guy (even if it is a very powerful one) wont really workin the sstunty leeg, especially if there is a chance it will get sent off due to secret weapon |
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stargzrrag
Joined: Jun 10, 2004
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Aug 06, 2004 - 23:12 |
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I still think that more than one is neccesary in stunty league, but 2 would definately be enough.
...
I was wondering if adding the characteristic deathroller to the critter ball would be interesting. Very little would have to be changed from the way it is now.. I got this description of deathroller out of the reference pages on FUMBBL (under secret weapons):
"(Secret Weapon)Deathroller
One of the most spectacular, if not the most efficient, secret weapons fielded by any Blood Bowl team is the Dwarf Death-Roller. It was first used by the Dwarf Warhammerers back in ’64 and has been a regular part of many Dwarf teams’ arsenals ever since. The Death-Roller’s continuing popularity is no doubt due to the fact that it’s so easily improvised from the rollers found at the more sophisticated and well-kept grass-laid stadiums. Referees have done their best to keep Death-Rollers off the playing field, and quite a few have ended up as flat as a pancake as a result! Because of this most referees wait until after a touchdown has been scored before they try to throw the Death-Roller out of the game. Getting in the way as the machine first roars onto the field is just too dangerous!
On the whole a Death-Roller is treated just like a normal player, albeit a very strong one, using the characteristics and skills from the Star Player list. However, to reflect the machine’s unique properties, the following special rules apply.
The Death-Roller is far too solid and sturdy to be tackled, so it can ignore enemy tackle zones when it moves and never has to dodge in order to leave one. Death-Rollers may attempt to move extra squares, but if they ‘fall over’ it is assumed that the boiler has blown up (see below for the effects). A Death-Roller is at its most deadly when it is used against prone players who cannot move out of the way. To represent this, if a Death-Roller is used to foul a player lying on the field, then +6 is added to the Armour roll to see if the prone player is injured.
Death-Rollers that are knocked over by a block, or by the use of a Wizard’s spell, or whose boiler blows moving extra squares, or that suffer an injury in any way, are wrecked for the rest of the game. Remove the model from the field and place it in the Dead and Injured Player’s box in the Dugout to show this. The Death-Roller may not be used again that match, though it will be repaired in time for the next game.
Penalty Roll: 7+"
The penelty roll is rough, but the idea of a mass of critters rolling over someone for the +6 foul seems right. Ignoring TZ's seems apropriate- who in their right mond is gonna assist against a big ball of claws and teeth? If the ball is ever knocked over/fails sprinting, the description could be that the critters seperate and scatter in all directions.
I like the way it is now, the multiple block just got me thinking about the deathroller.  |
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karix
Joined: Aug 18, 2003
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Aug 07, 2004 - 06:35 |
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this critters idea rocks.. i'd totally play this team.. i think the deathroller status has a lot of potential though maybe change the penalty roll because they're just a big ball of critteres... which is less dodegy than a massive steam roller on the field ;>
great idea lets get it turning into a stuny team hehe.. whose doin the icons for it? ;> |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 07, 2004 - 08:07 |
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Here's the criteria that have guided the development of the Stunty Leeg:
1) Stunty Leeg teams should have a solid background that is part of the Warhammer Universe or extends it in a reasonable manner. Please no -ling teams or teams from another universe.
2) Make sure the team is Unique. Don't steal another pre-existing team's schtick. This is very difficult. Most of the possible variants have been covered. This needs to be very well thought out.
3) Novel playing style. The team should add a different playing style to the Stunty Leeg. There's no point adding a new team unless it adds something new to the Stunty Leeg.
4) Mayhem. The team should have some mayhem features. Big Guys, Secret Weapons, Mayhem-inducing skills. Combine this with #2 and your task is a very difficult one.
5) Stunty Leeg team. The team should have a mix of Stunty players and a few Big Guys. ST3 AG3 players would need some real strong justification.
6) Balance. Once all of the above criteria have been satisfied. The team must be tweaked to ensure it's reasonably balanced compared to the other teams.
I've spent countless hours designing Stunty Leeg teams to fit this criteria. It's a difficult time consuming process. Most of the recent proposals seem to go from "gee-whiz" idea phase to wouldn't this be great. While virtually all the Stunty Leeg teams have gone through an extensive design process often taking several months. It's very frustrating to see so many slapdash proposals that ignore these key design principles that have guided the growth of the Stunty Leeg.
Quick Scoring of the above team:
1) Fluff: 2/10 The Warhammer Universe already has critters, but they happen to be called Squigs  Nice try at a rationalization though.
2) Unique: 1/10. We already have 2 OFAB teams. Why do we need a 3rd one which so closely resembles the squigs?
3) Novel Playing Style: 2/10 Can't see how this team would add much to the Leeg that the Squigs and/or Strigoyans don't already do.
4) Mayhem: 3/10. A duller version of the Squigs yet I'm sure lots of teams would drool at the chance to inflict mayhem on this team.
5) Stunty Team: 4/10. Similar deviation from the core design as Squigs, yet is ST1.
6) Balance: ?/10 All ST1 and weak Big Guys could result in this team getting completely slaughtered but only playtesting would tell.
Conclusion: Too similar to the Squigs to be worth considering especially considering its overall low scores in every category.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism |
_________________
Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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_Sayian_
Joined: Nov 05, 2003
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Aug 07, 2004 - 14:31 |
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You write a very good and powerfull post ETA. I have read about your team on your website and I know you have extensive knowledge about team process. There for I have a high respect for your judgment.
I can see that it would be very difficult to addapt this team to the warhammer world. Though I think the idee of the team is a nice on imo you are very much right. The team does not exist in the warhammer world and that is the main problem. They are also by standard very much like the squigs (but only weaker infact). Though I am willing to modifi the team so it can meet the balance a little better it would not be a creative idee since it only has a long shot at becoming (if even that) a part of stunty. Though many people have expressed their possitiv thoughts about Critters im afraid that the concept will never hold togehter (if you dont write a book about them in the warhammer world that is) by the criterias you have shown.
Though I enjoyed disscussing the team and forming them here on the forum im afraid that it only will come to that. We had fun =)
Thanks for the post ETA! |
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stargzrrag
Joined: Jun 10, 2004
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Aug 07, 2004 - 21:07 |
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_Sayian_, Before you write this off, I'd like to drag over some comments froma another post where Evo was less than helpful.
from http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=posting&mode=quote&p=40066
| m0nty wrote: |
Evo: I tried looking for any mention in the forums of the "core design philosophy" of Stunty Leeg you talked about. I found this thread in which you present your personal philosophy, but all peikko says is that he wants the proposals "to be sensible and offer something new to Stunty Experience".
JJ is trying to move Blood Bowl away from strict WHFB adherence, so I don't think we should stick to it religiously with Stunty Leeg. I agree we shouldn't import foreign material like gully dwarves, but any generic fantasy trope is fair game IMHO. Again, that's just my opinion, and I respect peikko's absolute power to do anything he likes.
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So unless Peikko says what Evo said, it's only an opinion. Not that I am saying to write off Evo's opinion. In this situation he does not have the final authority that his attidute insinuates. The idea still has merit even if not for FUMBBL.
Long story short- don't give up your idea because of one nay-sayer. |
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_Sayian_
Joined: Nov 05, 2003
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Aug 07, 2004 - 21:27 |
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Hmmm, perhapps you are right stargzrrag. The only way for me to find out how this can be solved is to contact Peikko and ask him if he would like to give his oppinion on this. Though I would love to be apart of creating a new team I can't begin if I dont have the suport and help of the proffesionals and the people on the forum, who has already helped greatly. =)
Let's see how it goes. =) |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 07, 2004 - 23:35 |
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| stargzrrag wrote: | | m0nty wrote: |
Evo: I tried looking for any mention in the forums of the "core design philosophy" of Stunty Leeg you talked about. I found this thread in which you present your personal philosophy, but all peikko says is that he wants the proposals "to be sensible and offer something new to Stunty Experience".
JJ is trying to move Blood Bowl away from strict WHFB adherence, so I don't think we should stick to it religiously with Stunty Leeg. I agree we shouldn't import foreign material like gully dwarves, but any generic fantasy trope is fair game IMHO. Again, that's just my opinion, and I respect peikko's absolute power to do anything he likes.
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So unless Peikko says what Evo said, it's only an opinion. Not that I am saying to write off Evo's opinion. In this situation he does not have the final authority that his attidute insinuates. The idea still has merit even if not for FUMBBL.
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I wouldn't be too swayed by m0nty, who's repeatedly shown how little he knows about stunty. My opinion is based on being intimately involved in the development of the whole Stunty Leeg. I've personally designed many of the Stunty Leeg teams. I've rebalanced most of the Stunty Leeg teams. I've had many conversations with the past admin of the Leeg where we discussed the design philosophy of the Stunty Leeg. So, unless Peikko wants to radically reject the principles that have guided the Stunty Leeg in the past, I think I my comments should be worth serious consideration.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism |
_________________
Ignorance is Strength quis custodiet ipsos custodes As Always, Evolve To Anarchism |
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Wallace
Joined: May 26, 2004
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Aug 08, 2004 - 01:14 |
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Just a technical point Sayian, can you abitrarily decide to give 'secret weapon +10' or any other number to a player? Will the client recognise this? The way I understand the JavaBB client at the moment, you could only use an exsting secret weapon. I was going to suggest the deathroller, but it seems I was beaten too it! It would still be unique if the critter ball was a deathroller that gained skills. It would also then be extremely powerfull, so team balance would need to be looked at carefully.
If you want to playtest sometime, drop me a PM, I'll give these critters a game to see how they play. |
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_Sayian_
Joined: Nov 05, 2003
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Aug 08, 2004 - 01:16 |
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I have just gotten a reply from Peikko. With his premission I give you what he said.
Here is my PM to Peikko
Sayian_ wrote on Aug 07, 2004 - 09:44 PM:
Hello Peikko!
I have a little problem and I wonder if you could assist in giving your opinion? I don’t know if you have read it yet on the forum, but here is the story.
A couple of days ago I worked out a team just for fun and posted it on the forum under stunty. I thought it would make a good discussion and something people could debate and have fun with suggesting things for it. By the time I knew anything there were a lot of posts asking me to evolve the concept and rules for it. To my surprise there was no bad criticism at all on the team. We had fun making it and talking about it, but then there was a very good post written and that made me think that the concept of such a team would be next to impossible. But then I got some feedback both in the forum and in the mail asking me to continue it and ask you for an opinion.
I would like to ask if you would like to give your advice in the matter. The forum thread can be found here: http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3213
Do you think that I should continue this creation?
Best regards!
//_Sayian_
Here is Peikkos answer.
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As every new stunty creation, nothing is impossible if races are proven to be worthy. One of the most important things for race to be added someday is playtsting, more and reliable the better. So without commenting the concept myself further, playtest, playtest, playtest.
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So I guess that the Critter team have a chance, but It will as described demand a serius walkthrough with both concept making and playtesting! |
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Tizai
Joined: Jul 14, 2004
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Aug 08, 2004 - 02:24 |
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EvolveToAnarchism, I too think that you should hold a certain level of repect when it comes to Stunty Leeg, but all too often it seems to me that you're shooting down ideas simply because someone thought them up on a whim and/or the idea was inspired by something non-warhammer related.
It's like you hate the idea for one of those reasons and then try think up better reasons for why you hate it. Forgiveness if I'm mistaken, but that's just how it appears in your posts. Besides, unless Peikko is getting inundated with messages that start with "hey look at my team!", what can it hurt if a few of these ideas get messed around with? People might still like to use the teams outside of Fumbbl.
Sayian that looks like a pretty default answer from Peikko. But still, don't give up on the idea. Even if it is just something that he writes to everyone who asks that question, it seems pretty true. The best team on paper could be useless on the field, and vice versa.
I'd like to add my vote to the deathroller skill (take off break tackle and multiple block), though 7+ does seem a bit low considering the team would be very weak without the balls.
I also think that there should be 0-2 balls, especially if they're going to have a 7+ throwout roll. Or maybe on a 7+ the critters just can't maintain the ball any longer and it falls apart.
Another suggestion would be to give the balls and/or the big furries the Guard skill to help offset the ST1 critters. Although, access to General skills might help to offset that anyway.
I also took a bit of a look at the poisoned dagger weapon for big furries, but I think that might be too many secret weapons for the team.
Keep discussing it, this team could be really fun (if only for the giant balls). |
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LordSigmund
Joined: Jan 28, 2004
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Aug 08, 2004 - 03:09 |
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This team is looking good, needs some playtesting doing though so it can be rounded out. It may be a bit similar to squigs, but thats no reason not to play around with it, maybe a new twist can be found to give them an interesting playing style.
@ Evo: I know you have put a lot of time and effort into developing stunty, but about this rule of teams fitting into the WHFB universe, I'm sorry, but where exactly do fairies, gnomes and the circus team come from in WHFB?
Also, wouldn't it be better to discuss the design philosophy of Stunty Leeg with peikko? Rather than talking about how you've done it before with mr klipp and peikko should just go along with that. I don't want to put down your effort, but you do come across as slightly condecending in your last post. |
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m0nty
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 08, 2004 - 03:35 |
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I agree with Evo about how you shouldn't listen to me! 
peikko is the one and only arbiter, and as he has said numerous times, his only criteria are:
1. adding something new;
2. balance through extensive playtesting. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 08, 2004 - 04:38 |
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Oh yeah? Well I agree with me about how you should listen to me. Take that! 
I honestly feel the critters - both as a movie and as a bloodbowl team - are lacking in depth. Call me a snob if you want, I can take it.
If you want a critters-themed team, then make a stunty team of your choosing and select appropriately critter-ish names and find some player images. Make a Aequitas-sized bio, if you want to wax philosophical about some crackhead theory that the movie was simply a scathing criticism of the rise of rampant consumerism ("they just eat and eat and eat! They can't stop eating, even if it kills them!"). I still don't see a valid reason to add the roster and I think that if we started adding new rosters every time somebody decides their idea is somehow unique, creative and valuable, then stunty leeg would end up in a complete mess.
The world of FUMBBL is just not ready for the Pitch Black Eyeless Monster Guys, team. We don't need a Princess Diaries 2-themed team either, so stop even thinking it (0-1 Princess 100k 5147 Block, Dodge, Shop*, Stunty, Right Stuff, Razor Sharp Claws... because every roster proposed has RSC at some point... Bleh).
* Shop (General Trait) - The player has a keen eye for a bargain and a love of shoes. Once per game, at any point in the match, you may take your opponent's treasury and your own and purchase any freebooted players, stars or coaching staff you wish. All such players join your team for the duration of the match. On President's Day, Boxing Day, and during the month of Ramadan, there are sales! All freebooters hired with the Shop skill are 20% off!
There. It's unique. It... well... Sure it's balanced. She's only STR 1 and she costs 100k! It must be balanced, right?
Oh yeah.. it's completely impossible to implement... that's ok, that's not one of Peikko's "only criteria" then, right? Woohoo! What do I win? Why isn't it implemented yet?
Now for all my negative feedback here (not directed just at the critter-meister, btw... this is bottled up annoyance fueled by a prodigious amount of cheap port), I have something potentially helpful to add as well.
In my free time**, I've been working on making a very bare-bones FUMBBL-ish league management program so that I could release the source code and anyone with a webserver and enough brains to figure out a few config files could set up their own league however they want. As a "control group" I was going to make a LRB-compliant league. As a "stress test", I was going to make the B.R.O.K.E.N. League (working title). Basically, to show the customizability of the code, I was going to make a league where there was only one race and it had ALL players available (0-16). Just for fun. Just to show off. You could make your team of nothing but Wardancers if you wanted (and earned enough cash). Or nothing but Chaos Warriors, Gutter Runners and Bull Centaurs, if that's your thing. Whatever you want.
Now I have a new test... The B.Y.O.P. League. Bring Your Own Player. You pick the player's stats, skills, etc... and it automatically gives you a price suggestion (based on JJ's old formula) which you can use or ignore as you see fit. Then you can add it to your roster. It would conveniently also allow people to easily make test rosters themselves and give them a shot against like-minded and/or curious opponents.
I won't be able to get any further on things until I get my housing situation settled in a month or so, but perhaps a few people could at least consider containing their zeal for a while in order to get some testing in. Sound useful? Would anyone actually bother trying it?
** Hah. Free time. As if. I mostly sketched out the architecture while riding the train into work and did write a few lines of code and set up some of the back end while slacking at work a few times ... The initial test was (of course) incomplete, but it looks like the setup was sound enough to pursue it further once I sell my friggin' house. |
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m0nty
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 08, 2004 - 05:36 |
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Personally, I blame JJ for loudly proclaiming that he modelled his Necromatic (sic) roster on the old Hammer Horror movies. Everyone thinks they can pick a movie and base a team around it. That's not to say that some good teams couldn't come out of doing that, but some movies are entirely unsuitable. I shudder to think of a team based on Texas Chainsaw Massacre...
BMM, I'd love to see a client such as you describe. |
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