Wolbum
Joined: Jul 14, 2010
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Mar 09, 2023 - 11:03 |
 
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Faced Bomber Dribblesnot yesterday for the first time and he removed Grashnak and a warrior as well as opened up a screen with homing bombs. I officially am now part of the anti bomb camp. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Mar 09, 2023 - 14:51 |
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Bomber should be 90k, Cindy 85k. I think that would solve a lot of it. If they go for a similar game in Third Season, a price bump and PA reduction rom 3+ to 4+ or something like that, that could help a lot.
It's really telling that GW made Cindy as an objectively inferior version of Bommer, but weren't willing to make her cheaper. But they're really married to this mistake, strangely so: given the opportunity to fix it, they opted to rewrite the Petty Cash rules (badly) rather than just change the price on two star players. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Mar 09, 2023 - 15:35 |
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Yea. the other thing they've done to try and fix it was introduction of 'Megastar' category to give leagues and tournaments a way of reducing impact of broken star rules.
Instead of .. you know.. fixing their cost, which is the clearly obvious way of doing it
The models must be selling well, such that the balance team have been blocked by the company from actually fixing the price, or something |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 09, 2023 - 15:53 |
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If the models are selling well then give every team a bomber. Either you fix him or you give everybody a bomber.
Or, at least, give the chance to spend 50k when the opponent hires him so you don't have to face him. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %09, %2023 - %16:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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Wynters_Dad
Joined: Oct 22, 2021
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Mar 09, 2023 - 16:17 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Bomber and Cindy are blatantly underpriced and potentially gamebreaking, so I thought to make a thread about ways to counter them.
My ideas, so far (feel free to add yours):
1) A Thrower (or Runner with some throwing skill such as Accurate or Cannoneer) following the main ball carrier (but out of blast radius, at least 2 squares away from the ball carrier) so, if the main ball carrier is knocked down, he can pick up the ball and pass it;
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I think this needs to be backed up with some sort of blocking player, so if the ball carrier goes down they have to at least blitz a player to mark up the ball.
| Quote: | 2) Safe Pair of Hands, in order to control the ball's scatter when the ball carrier is knocked down; that means the ball carrier/Thrower could hide in a corner of the pitch, reducing the chance of being hit by an Inaccurate bomb (because a corner square has just 3 adjacent squares);
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Im not sure id be competent enough to launch an attack from the corner, and would just be delaying the inevitable.
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4) Weather Mage: When you're going to move close to Bomber change the Weather to Very Sunny to give him a -1 malus. Weather Mage is very cheap so in theory he can be bought easily and often;
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I like the idea of this, how easy is it for very sunny to come up with the modifiers? ive never checked.
I find Bomber and even cindy to be honest difficult to play against. the more you spread out to avoid multiple knockdowns the more of a gap a single bomb can make. We should get the chalkboard out and draw some formations! |
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Wynters_Dad
Joined: Oct 22, 2021
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Mar 09, 2023 - 16:21 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | Bomber should be 90k, Cindy 85k. I think that would solve a lot of it. If they go for a similar game in Third Season, a price bump and PA reduction rom 3+ to 4+ or something like that, that could help a lot.
It's really telling that GW made Cindy as an objectively inferior version of Bommer, but weren't willing to make her cheaper. But they're really married to this mistake, strangely so: given the opportunity to fix it, they opted to rewrite the Petty Cash rules (badly) rather than just change the price on two star players. |
Im not sure Cindy is that much inferior. The automatic blow up special rule is definitely better but she can still throw 2 bobs at a point and is still a 2+ accurate. Thats the difficult bit about it is how consistent they can be |
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Wynters_Dad
Joined: Oct 22, 2021
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Mar 09, 2023 - 16:23 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | Score instead of stalling.
That's how you counter secret weapons. |
Thats a very vague strategy ha. The opponent might make it difficult for you to break through their line. Even if you break through and and go for a 2 turn TD, the bomb is still coming your way. And it doesnt really help if you are on defence |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 09, 2023 - 16:30 |
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| Chris300 wrote: |
I think this needs to be backed up with some sort of blocking player, so if the ball carrier goes down they have to at least blitz a player to mark up the ball.
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Yes, ideally there should be a screen of players to make hard to get the ball in case of ball carrier being blasted down.
| Chris300 wrote: |
Im not sure id be competent enough to launch an attack from the corner, and would just be delaying the inevitable.
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I didn't mean to spend many turns hiding in a corner, but you could stall for 2-3 turns there before starting to advance.
| Chris300 wrote: | | I find Bomber and even cindy to be honest difficult to play against. the more you spread out to avoid multiple knockdowns the more of a gap a single bomb can make. We should get the chalkboard out and draw some formations! |
So far, I found that with Elves I can deal with bombers better than with bash and hybrid teams, because I can play by spreading around and because ball handling (passing, handing off, or just picking the ball up when the ball carrier is blasted) is easier. Also, due to higher players' speed, you need just 1-2 turns to get away from bombers.
With clumsy teams such as Dwarfs and Khemri it can be way harder.
As an aside, the +1 damage bomb modifier is too good because it affects an area. I think that nerfing the bomb itself would help. For example, +1 damage applied only to the target square, no +1 damage to the 8 adjacent squares.
The bombs would still be good at disruption, but their damage potential would be greatly reduced. I remember many games where Inaccurate bombs still were super effective.
They should be Frag grenades, not Krak grenades. 
If the bomb itself got nerfed, more bombs would be required to deal damage, that means more rolls that can fail.
Instead, now, even a single good bomb can be super destructive. |
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Carthage
Joined: Mar 18, 2021
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Mar 09, 2023 - 17:08 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | If the models are selling well then give every team a bomber. Either you fix him or you give everybody a bomber.
Or, at least, give the chance to spend 50k when the opponent hires him so you don't have to face him. |
Funny enough cause exactly half of all races can take one right now.
Add one to Favored of, Sylvannian Spotlight, and Elven Kingdom League and you get all of them.
Though I could see the argument that part of the tradeoff for widespread Regeneration in Syl is that their stars kind of suck, so maybe they don't get one. Also because Shambling Undead needs something resembling a weakness. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Mar 09, 2023 - 19:30 |
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| Chris300 wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: | Score instead of stalling.
That's how you counter secret weapons. |
Thats a very vague strategy ha. The opponent might make it difficult for you to break through their line. Even if you break through and and go for a 2 turn TD, the bomb is still coming your way. And it doesnt really help if you are on defence |
Bomber is a defensive starplayer first and foremost. If your opponent fields him during their offense, either they have a bribe or they are making a mistake.
As for the vagueness... Well, I guess. But that's still solid advice that should come way before any in-game tactic. You would be surprised by the number of coaches who want to have their cake (stall the full eight turns) and eat it too (not suffer bomber). That's not how it works. The first and foremost thing to keep in mind is that if you score, there's a 83% chance of having him gone, depriving the opponent of a player AND 50k tv.
If you keep this in mind, you're good. Then you can go to step 2, which is discussing the tactics during the actual game turns.
But step 1 will always be "Score instead of stalling".  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 09, 2023 - 20:53 |
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Today I tried to score fast (not in 2 turns, but earlier than usual turn 8 ) with my HE vs Orcs and Bomber:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4443183
Had to risk some rolls (2+ pass, catch, hand off, Rush nothing super hard with multi rr and action-related skills) but a failed Rush almost cost me the game.
Eventually I got lucky on Half 2 and tied, but the "score fast" approach doesn't seem to work for me.
I mean, yes, you can try to score fast but that is not a safe thing. It generally leads to some risk anyway. You may be safe from bombs but not safe from failed Rush/dodge/hand off/pass/catch rolls.
If you want to move the ball quickly away from the Bomber you need to take risks.
The chances are that you will fail something and so, even if Bomber doesn't bomb your players, the failure is enough for the opponent to stop your offensive drive and score a defensive TD.
Blodge is not even a good protection anymore because with multi rr Orcs can easily chase the Catcher with Rushes, using a rr if needed, and then rr the 2d block if a pow is not rolled. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Mar 09, 2023 - 21:32 |
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"In order to score you have to roll dice". Duh.
Of course you have to. It all depends if those dice are more risky than resisting bomber for multiple turns or not. That's up to you, depending on the general situation, positionin, rerolls and a myriad other factors. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 09, 2023 - 22:20 |
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It's hard to assess what is more risky, because facing Bomber it's very luck-dependant.
Bomber could fumble first throw or keep on throwing bombs for some turns.
If you wait for fumble, you could spend too many turns back and then scoring could be hard due to lack of turns, if you rush the score you could fail due to more dice rolling than normal (I know that to score you have to roll dice, but you can do it, when not facing a bomber, with more caution).
I made an example with HE, but not all teams are able to move the ball quickly (and even HE can fail at it, if too many rolls are required).
Dwarfs, even if they wanted to score fast, could not do it. Khemri too.
And we are not considering bad weather. If there is Pouring Rain, Blizzard, Very Sunny moving the ball via hand-off/passing/rushing gets harder.
A Catcher with Safe Pair Of Hands could help to control the scatter, but then the rest of the build would be ruined. Without MVP nomination it's harder to develop more than 1 good Catcher, realistically speaking.
Bomber can be, in theory, countered by some skills, but you need more TV to counter him than his TV, so in the end it's a win-win for Bomber user.
If fumbling a bomb/hitting team mates were a turnover, or throwing a bomb used the Blitz Action of the team, it would be easier. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %09, %2023 - %22:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Mar 09, 2023 - 22:31 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Mar 09, 2023 - 22:31 |
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Exactly what I think. Also, it's not even guaranteed that Bomber will be ejected if you score fast. |
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