Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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 Posted:
Apr 17, 2023 - 17:33 |
 
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The new inducement rules make it uncertain if you can use a mercenary to replace a MNG positional in the coming match. If you are a small underdog or at even TV it won't be possible.
I dislike the new inducement rules because they stop me from a lot of ways of getting an unfair advantage over my opponent.
I'm thinking maybe even fair playing honorable coaches could like the idea to make mercenaries a reliable substitute for missing positionals again though, correct me if I'm wrong.
If you could add a mercenary before readying your team paying the gold cost and increasing your TV by player cost +30k you wouldn't have to fire a MNG positional with skills or SPP in some cases.
This just happened to me as my chorfs met some crazy hard hitting vikings and I don't want to play next match one chorf missing.
What do you think? |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Apr 17, 2023 - 18:07 |
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The new inducement rules were such a mistake. They should have fixed the broken stars (there aren't many) by adding to their price tag in errata, then maybe thrown on a free prayer for any team whose opponent scums at all (in addition to the one per 50k), and suggested a cap on per-match scumming as an optional rule. Poof, problem solved.
Oh, and perhaps Mercenaries should now be +20k to hire and +40k for a skill (or +20k for a random skill?), to keep up with star player inflation. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Apr 17, 2023 - 18:55 |
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Balancing stars by cost seems logical. Prayers could be better for the coach awarded them instead of often just random. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 17, 2023 - 19:01 |
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| Chrisdekok wrote: |
This just happened to me as my chorfs met some crazy hard hitting vikings and I don't want to play next match one chorf missing |
For that issue (MNG positional player) I'd like this house rule:
Positional Journeymen: if a positional player is MNG they are replaced by a Loner (4+) Rookie positional of the same type in the post-match phase (i.e. when Journeymen are added to the roster and before putting the team on Ready status). They can't be healed by the Apothecary. |
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Garion26
Joined: Nov 28, 2021
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Apr 17, 2023 - 19:03 |
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While I agree with much of this conversation in this thread sounds like the
'Buy the Merc prior to readying team' is an artifact of the oddities of online blood bowl with a TV based matchmaker rather then a core BB 2020 problem
If you are in Game Finder with the chorfs couldn't you look for a bigger team to ensure you get the induced merc?
I think the induced Dribblesnot angst is what caused the change in this FAQ. I think a price change (and maybe less internet angst in general) may have fixed the issue. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Apr 17, 2023 - 19:08 |
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| Chrisdekok wrote: | | Balancing stars by cost seems logical. Prayers could be better for the coach awarded them instead of often just random. |
Agreed. I really like the Prayers that give you an extra SPP award for this thing or that are cool, I wish there was one that gave a bonus SPP for completing short passes and longer, and one that let you stuff the ballot box and pick your MVP (when the result comes up, not after the match), instead of those silly moles and trapdoors. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Apr 17, 2023 - 19:21 |
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There is the overpowered game breaking under scrutiny prayer. Otherwise I don't think there are any too good prayers but several too bad ones like you mentioned. |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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Apr 17, 2023 - 19:40 |
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If you guys dont like to play with MNG players and play a league style of game you can always play rez style tournaments where injuries dont last ?
I always thought the idea of league style play was that you could maim your oppo so his next game is harder and therefore would make it easier for you to get into playoffs.
I dont think 30k extra for hiring a extra player is a problem (if it was lower you could just boost 11 player teams too easy for some matchups), if your TV is same it should be fair game (so ive been told). |
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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 17, 2023 - 19:55 |
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+30k for hiring an extra player is not a problem, but it could be if you lack the gold. Elves teams have expensive positionals and don't have lot of gold to spend.
While a Human team without a Blitzer can be played quite well, the same can't be said about a Tomb King or Undead team lacking a Guardian/Mummy.
Lizardmen come to mind as well, they tend to lose performance when a Saurus or 2 are MNGs.
So, ok, let's assume you spend 130k to hire a Mercenary Tomb Guardian, but what if you have to spend 260k gold to hire 2 Tomb Guardians? As long as just 1 positional is MNG yes you can probably hire a Mercenary, but when 2 or more are MNGs it could be harder.
So, a rule automatically giving a temporary Rookie positional would ensure that the roster has all the positionals in every game. Also, they would be just Rookie positionals with Loner 4+, so, always worse than the rostered players they are replacing.
After all, if you spent gold to hire a positional player, your roster should always have him (even if just as a Rookie positional).
Some positional players are the cornerstones of their team. 1 MNG Saurus or Tomb Guardian has a higher impact on team's performance than 1 MNG Elf or Human Blitzer. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Apr 17, 2023 - 20:05 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Some positional players are the cornerstones of their team. 1 MNG Saurus or Tomb Guardian has a higher impact on team's performance than 1 MNG Elf or Human Blitzer. |
That's why the former has av9 / regen and the second one does not.
If you lose two tomb kings or two mummies in a single game you are extremely unlucky and or you played poorly. You also would get insane inducements in that game.
Adding extremely unlikely situations to prove a point is not useful.
On the stars costs, I think everybody agrees that they need a rework. But stars also make GW money, so they need to be palatable.
If you are in a league and you get hit hard, you suck it up. It tends to happen to everyone once in a while so it balances out in the end. Always having all positionals in a team defies the purpose of long lasting injuries and particularly of the mng result in the first place.
If you always want to play on even grounds, there's chess. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 17, 2023 - 20:14 |
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Long lasting injuries would still have an impact, because, as I said, the temporary positionals would be Rookies with Loner 4+, without possibility to be healed by Apo/Mortuary Assistant.
So, even in case a temporary positional was replacing a Rookie positional, they would be worse due to Loner 4+ and no Apo.
Also, in a ruleset where AOE bombs are common, fouling is stronger and the Casualty table has 62.5 % chance of SI or Death, is not that uncommon to have 2 MNG positionals, even if you played well.
That may happen at low TV, and can make early games a pain. For example, Chaos: imagine losing a Chosen on game 1. You play next game without a Chosen, and Chaos is not exactly a top tier 1 team. No need to make tier 2 teams more frustrating to play than they are.
In Chess the White has a slight advantage, so, technically even Chess is not perfectly balanced. 
Seriously speaking, between playing a perfectly balanced game and a very unbalanced game there is an in-between ground with less unbalance/more balance. No need to jump to the polar opposite, no random game or dice game and accept whatever it happens. Randomness can be mitigated. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %17, %2023 - %20:%Apr; edited 5 times in total |
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Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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Apr 17, 2023 - 20:22 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | stars also make GW money, so they need to be palatable. |
Maybe GW should offer blisters of positionals so I can actually field a full human team. I would happily buy 2 more catchers and 2 more blitzers instead of proxying four of the linos. And no I'm not buying a second boxed team just for those 4. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Apr 17, 2023 - 20:40 |
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| Mingoose wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: | | stars also make GW money, so they need to be palatable. |
Maybe GW should offer blisters of positionals so I can actually field a full human team. I would happily buy 2 more catchers and 2 more blitzers instead of proxying four of the linos. And no I'm not buying a second boxed team just for those 4. |
I feel you. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Apr 17, 2023 - 20:47 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Long lasting injuries would still have an impact, because, as I said, the temporary positionals would be Rookies with Loner 4+, without possibility to be healed by Apo/Mortuary Assistant.
So, even in case a temporary positional was replacing a Rookie positional, they would be worse due to Loner 4+ and no Apo. |
That might be enough for a Black Orc or a skilled Mummy. But if you lose a chaos dwarf blocker and you get a loner one, the difference would be negligible. It already has what it is supposed to have to be useful. Same goes for a wardancer.
| MattaDakka wrote: | Also, in a ruleset where AOE bombs are common, fouling is stronger and the Casualty table has 62.5 % chance of SI or Death, is not that uncommon to have 2 MNG positionals, even if you played well.
That may happen at low TV, and can make early games a pain. |
That is true, but did it ever occur to you that it was made on purpose? You are talking like some fool forgot how the game is meant to be played, and you feel the need to fix it. It's not like that. They made the new rules to make the game more bloody, to force the turnover of players, and to embrace the mayhem. You don't like it because it adds too much randomness? That is your opinion. And while respectable (and, as a matter of fact, I liked the 2016 rules more as well), it is evident that they made those changes on purpose.
Adding house rules to tone them down is against the spirit of the new edition.
They would be "house rules", not "fixes". The game, in its 2020 ruleset, is meant to have unfair games mitigated by the reworked inducements system. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 17, 2023 - 21:02 |
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| JanMattys wrote: |
That might be enough for a Black Orc or a skilled Mummy. But if you lose a chaos dwarf blocker and you get a loner one, the difference would be negligible. It already has what it is supposed to have to be useful. Same goes for a wardancer. |
But a Chaos Dwarf MNG has not the same impact as a ST 4 or ST 5 Black Orc/Mummy/Chosen. For sure he's more reliable due to Blockle, but a Rookie Chaos Dwarf is less important as well, relatively speaking, for his team, than a Mummy/Tomb Guardian/cornerstone player.
A Loner 4+ WD is not that reliable, considering that Tackle cancels Dodge, that Leap sucks now, and that most of the WD actions apart from block/blitz are 1d based, making Loner not a negligible drawback.
According to my own particular experience, I struggled more in the games when a Tomb Guardian was MNG than when I lacked 1 Chaos Dwarf.
| JanMattys wrote: |
That is true, but did it ever occur to you that it was made on purpose? You are talking like some fool forgot how the game is meant to be played, and you feel the need to fix it. It's not like that. They made the new rules to make the game more bloody, to force the turnover of players, and to embrace the mayhem. You don't like it because it adds too much randomness? That is your opinion. And while respectable (and, as a matter of fact, I liked the 2016 rules more as well), it is evident that they made those changes on purpose. Adding housrules to tone them down is against the spirit of the new edition and a matter of absolute personal preference. But those would be "house rules", not "fixes". The game, in its 2020 ruleset, is meant to have unfair games mitigated by the reworked inducements system. |
Some time ago, when I talked about the fact that in BB2020 you are able to spend huge sums of golds in Inducements, Nelphine told me that it was a feature of the ruleset. So, being able to spend huge sums of gold to buy lots of Inducements was a purpose of the rules, apparently. Then the November FAQ was released and it turned out that the Inducements, as they were used till then, weren't a feature of the rules in the way we thought.
So, the rules seem to me a work in progress, without such carefully-thought purpose as you say.
Not saying you are wrong, but another possibility is that they just mess around and change and tweak things on the run, without a well-defined design goal/purpose.
The fact that Bomber is priced just 50k doesn't suggest they think a lot about things.
All in my own opinion and from my particular perspective. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %17, %2023 - %21:%Apr; edited 7 times in total |
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