koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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  Posted:
Jul 03, 2023 - 23:26 |
 
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Some people don't want to hear the word "dice" or the word "luck" at all during a game. Though they may be more than happy with you going full Jim Mora about players, coaches, weather, nuffle, etc
What we have is too many different kinds of people playing for too many different reasons.
It is one big compromise.
Depending on how someone's day/week/year have been, they may have more or less patience with the opponents comments/whinging/whining which most likely also depends on how the opponent's day/week/year has been.
Though comments are often misinterpreted on the web anyway  |
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Malmir
Joined: May 20, 2008
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Jul 03, 2023 - 23:31 |
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I find the people who are going to moan about dice generally don't say much else beforehand and so are pretty easy to spot. I comment on dice if I feel they are outside of the norm in either direction. If they are in my favour I'm happy to say so. I tend to try and comment less if they are going against me (no-one wants to play someone who just moans or uses it as an excuse). Not saying I'm perfect at this but I try. If my opponent claims they are getting bad dice and I disagree for any reason (e.g. they are playing poorly or simply biased) then I (usually - again not perfect) keep quiet and let them rant. Sometimes those rants can be quite amusing.
Koadah makes a good point - although I strive to the above,there may be times where I call bs and (try to) take someone to the cleaners. Sometimes I'm just not in a tolerant mood and I think we can all relate to that. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Jul 04, 2023 - 15:14 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | PurpleChest wrote: | | Wise stuff |
Excellet post as always. I wonder if (and if the answer is yes, how) you can really keep this cool, rational and enviable attitude when things get hot on the pitch. |
He can cos he is coaching dorfs  |
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Ridik700
Joined: Feb 11, 2023
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Jul 04, 2023 - 15:44 |
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but then sometimes dwarfs get outblocked by elves. Its inevitable. But it triggers some people like its an affront to nature if the most probable outcome doesn't happen almost all of the time |
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Mingoose
Joined: Jul 28, 2016
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Jul 04, 2023 - 18:33 |
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The reason people don't like dice griping is because of the implication that the aggrieved coach is superior in skill and only lost because of the dice. This underlying reason will instruct you on why certain dice gripes are harmless and others are fighting words. If you dice gripe about your favorite 3 players getting RIP instead of MNG, nobody will take offence because the implication is towards your team build NOT the outcome of the game. If you say "I would have won but for all of your lucky 1D POWs!" it is a direct affront to the skill of the other player and comes across as sour grapes. There is a lot of room between those two scenarios, and if you insist on "noticing" the bad dice you can certainly express it in a way that doesn't come across as sour grapes.
I find it interesting to think about all of the ways skill can manifest in Blood Bowl. I usually think about it as strategic skill and tactical skill. Strategic skill is more broad. Are you running for a TD or grinding down the field? Are you basing on defense or screening? Stalling or scoring T7? Any of these strategic decisions can be made skillfully, the question is which strategies are appropriate for the game at hand.
Tactical decisions are turn by turn, and can be divided up into positioning vs actions that require dice. Anything that requires dice is a matter of risk mitigation. Out of all the possible actions, which actions give you the most expected benefit given the value of the desired outcome and the likelihood of that desired outcome happening? There are actually two parts to this and only one relies on dice. You can fail to appropriately value the desired outcome, and in doing that pretty much invalidate the other half of the calculation, being the risk. Think about a situation where you dedicate 5 dwarfs to crowd surfing a lino on the opposite side of the field. Was the value of that surf worth leaving your defensive formation in shambles? It doesn't matter how the dice are rolled, you have displayed a lack of skill no matter the outcome.
The other half of your tactical skill is positioning. So your opponent just landed a 1D POW to take down your blodge ball carrier. Lucky right? But why did you leave that chance in the first place? How many dice did the opponent need to roll before he got that 1D POW? I have found this part of the game very different in the 2020 rules with multiple RR. It used to be acceptable to leave risky routes to your ball carrier. Now with the possibility of multiple RR, you simply cannot leave any routes at all or you will get popped. The other issue is, how often is your opponent getting the chance to make a risky run at your ball carrier? Is it unlucky if he gets the 1D POW on the second attempt? Third? At some point the odds say he should be getting that POW. The most common newbie dice gripe is the Blitz! kickoff roll. How many skilled coaches get killed with a blitz? I would say at least 50% of the time I score more easily after suffering a Blitz because my less skilled opponent has over extended their positioning on the Blitz. The other half of the time my more skilled opponent will gain an advantage, but due to my initial positioning it is not a doomed drive.
So while you are "noticing" the dice trends, it would also be nice for you to "notice" all of the other plays that didn't involve dice. A really nice way to "notice" dice would be to say "wow I haven't been getting the dice I needed to overcome your solid positioning". Or "I am really proud of the way I set up that play, shame I double skulled". If the only thing you "notice" all game is the dice you are probably outmatched. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jul 04, 2023 - 20:10 |
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The truth is, the better coach is usually perceived (mostly by the opponent) as lucky and the worse coach is usually perceived (mostly by himself) as unlucky.
The reason is that the better coach takes better chances, rolls fewer dice, does things in the right order, and usually puts himself in a position where average luck will do. The worse coach, on the other hand, is more likely to take the odd risk, take worse positioning, do things in a sub-optimal order, and ultimately count on some critical dice to succeed, putting all his apples in a single basket, so to speak.
Sometimes this is very evident, sometimes it is not. Sometimes the nuances of a first turn can manifest themselves in full three turns later, or a single cas can turn a favourable scenario into an unfavourable one.
But the gist of it is that the better you become, the less unlucky you feel.
At least, that's my experience with bb.
Also, it's worth noting that in my experience it is very difficult to teach this to newcomers, even if it is probably the best lesson they should learn from their first 20 games or so. |
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The_Great_Gobbo
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
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Jul 04, 2023 - 20:40 |
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Mebbe just ent dedicated ter Nuffle herself. I wun me last game by sacrificin a chicken (nugget) ter Nuffle fer betta dice an it wurked! I fink I wud av wun by moar if I ad sacrificed a chicken drumstik so get wurkin on yer pagan ritualz insted of whinin. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jul 04, 2023 - 20:42 |
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It never totally goes away though. Sometimes you just can't stop rolling skulls for like three turns in a row, and while you can mitigate that significantly with careful play it can hose you nonetheless, especially if it happens at exactly the wrong time, and/or if those skulls are followed with injuries. And you just gotta take it and like it. But usually then your opponent is okay with your dice griping because the event was a blatant outlier. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 04, 2023 - 23:27 |
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Abd then there's the games where you get a quad skull, and 5 other snake eyes or double skulls in the same match.. and you still win 2-0 because your opponent rolled so much incredibly worse that you end up commiserating with them. |
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Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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Jul 05, 2023 - 08:32 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | | It never totally goes away though. Sometimes you just can't stop rolling skulls for like three turns in a row, and while you can mitigate that significantly with careful play it can hose you nonetheless, especially if it happens at exactly the wrong time, and/or if those skulls are followed with injuries. And you just gotta take it and like it. But usually then your opponent is okay with your dice griping because the event was a blatant outlier. |
Which is why even the best coaches will never have a win rate even approaching 100%. Most will ruin their own chances by playing more difficult teams to keep things challenging, but even the few that try to optimize their chances for winning each and every game don't come near 100%.
I think commenting on the dice is fine in principle, especially if something crazy happens (like my halfling blitzing a blodge amazon uphill, who's stalling for the score and rolling two POWs).
The trick is in tone of voice and balance with other things said in chat (as others already pointed out).
EDIT: I actually like to discuss crazy dice events, as I find it easier to cope with the dice swings if there is some human contact. which is why TT games can be more fun to me - easier to joke around and share the crazy, game deciding moments. |
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almic85
Joined: May 25, 2009
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Jul 05, 2023 - 12:02 |
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I don’t get people who don’t like to talk about dice in game.
While a lot of the game comes down to positioning, and how well you plan for your own bad dice and your opponents good dice, the game is a dice based game and is ultimately decided by dice.
I recently won a 6 game tabletop tournament down here in Australia with 6 wins and 0 losses and I can guarantee you that the only reason I won most of those games was because my dice were better at the right time than my opponents.
And the better your opponent the more important good dice are because they are significantly less likely to make a mistake in positioning.
And FWIW to the OP if you did manage to beat the coach I am thinking it is then good for you. He is a great coach and luck or no luck you deserve some kudos. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 05, 2023 - 14:06 |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Jul 05, 2023 - 15:30 |
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| almic85 wrote: |
I recently won a 6 game tabletop tournament down here in Australia with 6 wins and 0 losses and I can guarantee you that the only reason I won most of those games was because my dice were better at the right time than my opponents.
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With equal skill of the coaches, the dice may be the determining factor. But if you play 100 games the dice factor is neutral. So if out of 100 games played against 100 players of your same level you have a 70% win rate it is because you played better. It is not because you got lucky.
I never give too much importance to the dice. I can lose a game because of the die but if it happens it is because my opponent didn't make mistakes (and I didn't make mistakes either) and so in the end what decided the game is a snake. But I know that next time the snake will happen to the other guy.
The die "must be observed." It should not be judged too much IMO.
Then yelling about bad luck well... it can be there, But standing around complaining about losing because of the die boh... for me it's wasted energy (although sometimes it can be so crazy or funny that it deserves a comment!). |
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Mantekao
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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| Posted:
Jul 05, 2023 - 15:39 |
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Hay gente que no sabe pasarlo bien o que solo entienden el juego llorando todo el tiempo y pisotean cualquier diversión que no sea la suya propia y exclusiva. Intenta no empatizar con personas que no empatizan al mismo nivel. Tu dales la razón y sigue jugando a lo tuyo. Muchos incluso intentan desconcentrarte con sus quejas esperando que entables una discusión. Otros simplemente piensan que Nuffle solo bebe lágrimas de entrenador y que éste les sonreirá si lloran mucho y lloran fuerte.
Un Abrazo |
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The_Great_Gobbo
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
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| Posted:
Jul 05, 2023 - 18:08 |
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Update: Sacrificin vegan chikken ter Nuffle doesn't wurk, does it extremegrazedknee? |
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Gnomes are trash
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