Gridironman
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
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 Posted:
Oct 26, 2023 - 00:49 |
 
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I lost for the first time with my vampire team, but it really is crazy how few players you need to be competitive. |
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An Amorican Nuffler that bashed in his youth. |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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Oct 26, 2023 - 12:07 |
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True. But it is also crazy how often you have a few players.  |
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I like cheese but don't call me skaven ! |
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Gridironman
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
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Oct 26, 2023 - 13:25 |
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Yeah, that was the problem for my team in that match. Blitzes and LoS blocks alone can lead to a loss. I did exacerbate my issues by letting the vampires drink rather than letting the drive end. Then again any other team would have been blown out but the vampires almost won. |
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An Amorican Nuffler that bashed in his youth. |
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Harpick
Joined: Oct 07, 2023
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| Posted:
Oct 26, 2023 - 15:29 |
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| Gridironman wrote: | | I lost for the first time with my vampire team, but it really is crazy how few players you need to be competitive. |
I've had a look at your match, some comments :
For me your attack perfecly illustrate why I try to score fast with vampires. Here you hit 10+ armors guys with your vampires, you have more chance to lose a thrall. 1/6 to pass armor 10+ of one of his guys if he falls, 1/6 to bite a thrall wether he falls or not. (+potential double skull for you).
That's not woth it. If you can't hit the loss with thralls, often better just not to.
And then attacking means often suffer lot of losses, you're pressurized so missing bloodlust put you in a difficult position (in defense it's not as critical, often you can just go bite a stunned thrall that wouldn't have played anyway).
In your place, I would have put most of my players on the right, catcher a bit behind, hypnotise the first orc on the lateral side, blitz the blocker behind, sneak some thralls, pass on the catcher, move him in scoring range. NExt turn, hypnogaze and blitz to else score right now, else temporise one or two turns.
And also I would have take defense first. In your first defense, you coutered him with 3 vampires ! Imagine with 5 ! You would have been 1-0 turn 2, and maybe who knows, still plenty of vampires to counter again or just defend.
Second half, even with few vampires, with pass and the runner you always have a chance for a 2 turn score  |
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Gridironman
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
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| Posted:
Oct 27, 2023 - 10:08 |
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| Harpick wrote: | | Gridironman wrote: | | I lost for the first time with my vampire team, but it really is crazy how few players you need to be competitive. |
I've had a look at your match, some comments :
For me your attack perfecly illustrate why I try to score fast with vampires. Here you hit 10+ armors guys with your vampires, you have more chance to lose a thrall. 1/6 to pass armor 10+ of one of his guys if he falls, 1/6 to bite a thrall wether he falls or not. (+potential double skull for you).
That's not woth it. If you can't hit the loss with thralls, often better just not to.
And then attacking means often suffer lot of losses, you're pressurized so missing bloodlust put you in a difficult position (in defense it's not as critical, often you can just go bite a stunned thrall that wouldn't have played anyway).
In your place, I would have put most of my players on the right, catcher a bit behind, hypnotise the first orc on the lateral side, blitz the blocker behind, sneak some thralls, pass on the catcher, move him in scoring range. NExt turn, hypnogaze and blitz to else score right now, else temporise one or two turns.
And also I would have take defense first. In your first defense, you coutered him with 3 vampires ! Imagine with 5 ! You would have been 1-0 turn 2, and maybe who knows, still plenty of vampires to counter again or just defend.
Second half, even with few vampires, with pass and the runner you always have a chance for a 2 turn score |
@Harpicck Watching through each turn to provide my viewpoint to help me understand vampires better since you have more knowledge on the topic of running them.
@Forum This is the match we are discussing https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4495157
I start with vampires on the LoS because I figure I may as well throw those 2+ blocks.
I waste a blitz with the Vampire runner,which would have been a 1d block anyways so I stay in place blood lusted with my line spread like elves in dual screens via thralls.
The orcs rightly emphasize tagging on their turn which ends on a failed rush+ failed RR.
On my turn I hypnotize for the sake of the fun of it to throw 2d on a unblocker--bloodlust occurs, but thankfully no viable thrall movement needed to occur so I at least stuck to my order of operations. I break my rule. I drink ther thrall next to me leading to an unforced badly hurt while my ballcarrier is safe enough. In other words, the turn could have and should have ended with a roar. I throw a needless 1d block but go unpunished
He takes his turn to reform the integrity of his defense.
My team breaks through the defense with ST4 blitzer that has the potential to score--but should not score early imo. I move my ballcarrier into a pocket hoping for the orcs to collapse on me honestly--probably not a good idea but what the hey St4 on a block piece is handling the ball. I stun an unblocker and roar due to bloodlust--uninterested to slake the thirst as I feel confident in my centralized position.
3 removals occur, now I need to score to garner *any* benefit from the situation I put myself in.
I choose to tag his orcs and throw the ball into the 2nd passer's hands
Brilliantly he chain pushes but decides to use a troll for effect only to fail when a blitzer would have had the block skill.
TD w/RR to make the dream work. But not prolonging if not being capable of prolonging the drive frankly--I put my players on the LoS again. I realize that this will only exacerbate my onfield numbers issue, but I also needed to score. Truly a Pyrrhic victory for the Kashas.
One Vamp down off a blitz, and a diced Troll throws 3d again only to fail a second time--highly improbable disaster for the orcs. Especially since none of the thrower's friends have tagged the ball.
I hazard a 2d block on a blitzer w/ a thrower with the block skill to enable an elfing attempt to make the score less reachable. As often happens to orcs, one thrall tags the thrower off of 2 rushes because now I am willing to use RR to widen the score. Afterward my runner grows hungry only to roar close to the ball.
On his turn my armor holds, but he smartly throws 2d blocks though out of order only for his last activation to see his thrower annoyingly being unable to pick up the ball off of sure hands.
A blitzer is in range to slow attack w/2d assist. All I want to do is position for failure, blitz him away w/thrower and scoop the ball up for an elfing TD. I am willing to burn RR to make it happen. I cannot make any safe moves besides successfully blitzing the thrower and scoring off of 1RR. 2-0 for Kashas, but I am down significantly in terms of numbers considering I need to hope that the LoS does not involve more removals.
1 removal this time a thrower. Has two turns to score and is positioning himself properly. On my turn I am able to use my last RR as insurance to put up a nice little screen. 2d Blitz w/o block handoff rr and 2 rushes later he scores a TD but I am happy that I made things complicated.
He gets the ball in the next half w/the numbers 11 v 7 in favor of the Orcs. Very dangerous. It results in 1 removal but the passer is isolated.
My elfing does not work, I wrongly refrain to RR off 3+
Down to 4 players, although some people are untagged.
I burn a RR to force thrown dice but I trip in the process of making some unecessary rushes.
He attempts to score quick to try to go for the win. Although the ball falls to the ground during the handoff exchange he is safe.
Much of the same elfing failure occurs on my turn, but he finally sandwhiches all my remaining pieces, down to 3. Essentially, we need to hope that the orcs fail all agility rolls. Finally, a blitzer is safely in scoring position. TD Orcs on turn 5.
3 players all on the line of scrimmage. Thankfully at least the vampire removes himself now being closer to the ball.
The goal is to draw him in only to throw a punt to his side of the field. Generally good spacing but an unecessary rush takes away his last rr. With all the rushes in the world they win the game against the vampires.
I solidly agree with the armor v. armor synopsis. Hitting is a losing battle on my end--I need to elf more.
I wish I was attacking him slower in my first drive. I want to screen in the future. You suggest scoring quickly, but I hate the LoS while kicking.
Everything else you have added makes a lot more sense--that attacking sequence sounds better than what I did. |
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An Amorican Nuffler that bashed in his youth. |
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Harpick
Joined: Oct 07, 2023
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| Posted:
Oct 27, 2023 - 11:35 |
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You still should consider bite/reroll on bloodlust more often, when you have important things left to try.
Turn 3, when you don't bite with the blitzer, you still have 2 vampires to play, one can hit a black orc out of contact, and the runner can be put in scoring range, that would have been worth it. By the way, attacking in the middle is not the best, you often just get surrounded.
On your turn 8, only his blitzer on the left is in scoring range. You should have hypnogazed him, he can't receive the ball when gazed. It would have force him to put him in the endzone and make a long pass, it would have been hard. And you could screen closer to him. If you let only 2 space, 2 payers were enought to screen.
Last small comment, when you're desprate at the end of the match, you can put your vampire in the corner. He will be surfed, but that's 100% chances for the ball to be out, and then lottery. |
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Gridironman
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
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| Posted:
Oct 27, 2023 - 23:08 |
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Oh I largely agree with what you said. In my analysis of the game, I did a lot wrong for sure. |
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An Amorican Nuffler that bashed in his youth. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Oct 29, 2023 - 13:46 |
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Someone consider new vampires OP. I think all agrees that new vampires have much more benefit than the old one, but considering them OP (like a top Tiers1 team like UW) is maybe little bit too much, what the audience think?
I think would be fair to consider them at the same level of a tiers2 team. For curiosity I am keeping some statistics of the current BT9 Trophy of Tiers4 team, at the moment I am taking results only by top players, top 10 who are using Tiers4 team. Find below some results.
In the diagram you also see the % of the opponent teams met (f.i is for sure harder for tiers4 team when play vs tiers2) anyway... I will mantain this statistics if people are interested we can maybe do a better evaluation at the end of BT9
ciao!
[/img]
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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| Posted:
Oct 29, 2023 - 13:48 |
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previous stats refer to the first top 10 using tiers4 who have completed 14 or 15 games... to be clear |
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Gridironman
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
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| Posted:
Oct 30, 2023 - 10:29 |
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I think that you are right, they feel like a tier 2 |
_________________
An Amorican Nuffler that bashed in his youth. |
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amazingprizzini
Joined: Dec 08, 2009
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| Posted:
Oct 30, 2023 - 19:58 |
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I thonk that's right. They are certianly much stronger than the prior version- more reliable, a pretyt good big buy, and some added speed. That said, things go still go downhill for a vamp team if the thralls end up in the injury box. |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Nov 01, 2023 - 21:41 |
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| amazingprizzini wrote: | | I thonk that's right. They are certianly much stronger than the prior version- more reliable, a pretyt good big buy, and some added speed. That said, things go still go downhill for a vamp team if the thralls end up in the injury box. |
worst if is vampires are in the injury box... because regeneration is working worst than apo, and because 1 vampire is worth than 3 thrall despite the cost.
So before keep thrall in safe, is mandatory to manage vampires in safe position as I learned in my first box match
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4497040; the next will be amazing, i will play w/o 2 vampires and 4 loners yu huu!
In end i still think they are better than the previous ones , but they requires a holy and carefull team management. Tiers 4 no. Tiers 2 maybe... probably something in the middle... |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Nov 02, 2023 - 10:27 |
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I do wish you could see the result of Regen *before* needing to decide if you use the Apoth |
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El_Jairo
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 03, 2023 - 14:06 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | | I do wish you could see the result of Regen *before* needing to decide if you use the Apoth |
Yes, the whole apothecary really could do with a rework.
The rostered one at 50k seems pretty fine, yet the induced one is 100k, double the cost but it's efficacity has been nerved over the years. I remember back when it was a single 2+ to bring a player back from the dead and good to go on the next drive.
On the power lever of Vampires: they have improved from bottom tier 4 to middle tier 2, so yes the difference is huge.
What stands out for me is three things coming together:
1) Many skills now require your player to have a tackle zone (and it being their turn) to be useable.
So Hypnotic Gaze can now turn off core skills like Block, Dodge, Side-Step, Sure Hands,... AND Hypnotic Gaze has improved because the Agility stat is treated differently.
This combined could be nerved back to Hypno Gaze being a 3+. In many other aspects of the game the 2+ to get a great result is taken out.
2) Vampires now have more movement, strength (in a big guy) and passing skill access. Which makes them a better allround team and helps their offense immensely yet also bolster their already good defensive game.
3) Failing a Blood Lust no longer results in a bite or a removal of the Vampire, which is huge, as now you can make any action as the last of the turn action if you a are willing to loose the Tackle Zones on that bloodlust player.
These alle make Vampires viable, fun to play and maybe meta-defining as they play Blood Bowl in such a different way: they are at their best on defense, being able to switch off players at will. |
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By the way Pheadrus, do we need anybody to tell us what is good and what is bad?
NAF n°: 21249 |
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CL
Joined: Oct 20, 2023
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| Posted:
Nov 04, 2023 - 02:32 |
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When a player scores and you start another drive, then you can bring more thralls from your bench reserves. Getting around the problem of "badly hurting" your thalls, also, if you straight up kill an opponents player you get it as a free thrall. So, getting mighty blow and and dirty player sounds like a good plan to me? |
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