Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Aug 21, 2004 - 11:59 |
 
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I really, really, really have an aversion to a team fielding twelve players with Stab. It's either useless or overpowering depending on the team you face. |
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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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the_grey_ghost
Joined: Oct 22, 2003
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Aug 21, 2004 - 12:01 |
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Galak's Idea is pretty cool. Don't split FA If you split FA then you might as well split dodge and sure hands and all the other dual skills.
Plus the split FA sucks.
I like the idea on degeneration, I thought it was pretty cool and fun.
Like to see it happen |
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Znail
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
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Aug 21, 2004 - 12:18 |
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I dont think Stab is that overpowered, but here is a version without Stab then (could use the same as the one before but with FA, but this one is to make sure that the FA players dont run too fast):
NURGLE TEAMS
0-12 Plague Zombies 30,000 4 3 3 9 Foul Apperance G(M)
0-4 Pestigors 80,000 6 3 3 8 Regenerate, Horns GS(M)
0-4 Rotters 110,000 4 4 2 9 Foul Appearance, Regenerate GS(M)
0-1 Beast of Nurgle 140,000 4 5 1 9 Foul Appearance, Loner, Mighty Blow, No Hands, Really Stupid, Regenerate, Tentacles S(M)
SPECIAL RULES
A Nurgle team may not have an apothecary. Instead, if a player is blocked or fouled by a player from the Nurgle team and killed, then he is crossed off the opposing team roster as normal, but the Nurgle team may add a new Plague Zombie for free after the game when updating the team roster. However, the coach must roll a D6 for each Plague Zombie on the team list after the game. For each result of 1, some of the Plague Zombie's flesh rots away and his AV is lowered by one - when it drops to 1, he dissolves into a pool of goo, and you must cross him off the team list! |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 21, 2004 - 12:20 |
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Go ahead, play a wood elf team when you have 12 Stab players on your team. They can be TR 300 and you TR 100, you're going to take them off the pitch like nobody's business. |
_________________
Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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Znail
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
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Aug 21, 2004 - 12:42 |
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I rather play against Stab with an Elf team then against the regular combination of Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Claw etc. Its not that hard to get 2d blocks against Elf teams and with Block and Tackle so is that almost as safe as Stab and you can modify the armor roll with other skills. But ofcourse Elf teams gets hurt pretty bad against such teams, but thats how it is and not a problem with Stab.
The Plague Zombies needs to be pretty good as well as they got a pretty hefty negatrait. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 21, 2004 - 12:53 |
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However, Block Tackle Mighty Blow Piling On Claw is only found on a 100 SPP player, and you won't find twelve of those on one team very easily. Whereas this team has a very easy way of getting blodgers off the field at tr 100, which is frankly ridiculous. |
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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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m0nty
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 21, 2004 - 13:32 |
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Znail: as I said in the Vault thread, LRB-strength FA across the board is way too strong. FA is the perfect fluffy Nurgle skill, and it should be on every player, but at its current power it's too much. Splitting it was the only way I could see that it could be given to all players on the team. Anyway, it is not very fluffy for a player's appearance to affect ball-handling, even if the player is three squares away behind a nest of players - Sickly Stench is a much better description for that game mechanic.
30k players with Stab and no Secret Weapon or Bloodthirst are badly broken. They would attack with no possibility of failure, and much higher probability of breaking AV compared to normal blocking (especially against blodgers).
I would love to see someone come up with something that would take the roster away from the Chaos archetype and more accurately reflect the original fluff of Nurgle that is even better than the compromise one I cobbled together from multiple suggestions. I haven't seen it yet. |
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Znail
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
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Aug 21, 2004 - 14:45 |
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I know that you like the idea of changing mutations. But if that doesnt happen, should nurgle stay as it is then?
The problem with having a large negatrait is obviously that it has to be compensated by making the player better for it costs then one without negatrait. I got some ideas to get around this problem.
The first and obvious solution is to forget the negatrait and thus avoid the problem. This will be easy to balance, but less interesting perhaps. Another problem with this is that apperantly so are Stab and Fould Apperance too good for linemen so it basicly leaves Regeneration as possible skill, wich would be a bit too much like Undead.
A second option is to give another advantage that isnt directly connected to on pitch play. I earlier suggested that the team would get a free Plague Zombie after every match. This would offset the negatrait some without making the team too strong on the pitch. Here would be the stats for this version:
NURGLE TEAMS
0-12 Plague Zombies 40,000 5 3 3 8 G(M)
0-4 Pestigors 80,000 6 3 3 8 Regenerate, Horns GS(M)
0-4 Rotters 110,000 4 4 2 9 Foul Appearance, Regenerate GS(M)
0-1 Beast of Nurgle 140,000 4 5 1 9 Foul Appearance, Loner, Mighty Blow, No Hands, Really Stupid, Regenerate, Tentacles S(M)
SPECIAL RULES
A Nurgle team may not have an apothecary. Instead the Nurgle team may add a new Plague Zombie for free after the game when updating the team roster. However, the coach must roll a D6 for each Plague Zombie on the team list after the game. For each result of 1, some of the Plague Zombie's flesh rots away and his AV is lowered by one - when it drops to 1, he dissolves into a pool of goo, and you must cross him off the team list! |
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Glomp
Joined: Jan 04, 2004
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Aug 21, 2004 - 15:09 |
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Hmmm free plague zombies?your going to have a full roster pretty soon.
Time to consider other options methinks. |
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Forum terrorist. |
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m0nty
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 21, 2004 - 20:41 |
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Znail, the Nurgle roster does need to be changed regardless, it is way too similar to Chaos and hardly pays lip service to the fluff (although a free PZ is too much - that's like adding 40k to your average winnings).
Here is what I see as being non-negotiable, based on support in the various threads:
- The team has to swap the Beastman with something new as the lineman.
- It needs a second positional to make it distinctive.
- We should respect gken1's request that the team must not lose speed over the existing version (i.e. don't lower MA anywhere).
- The infect rule has to be extencded to the whole team, not just the Beast.
- Underdog's -AV negatrait is perfect, it's just too good not to add to the team.
Beyond that, there are still many points of argument. I'm not saying my compromise roster is above criticism, because parts of it are a little radical. However, I think it is the best fit I have seen that satisfies both the fluff and the balancing imperatives of the Vault. |
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Znail
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
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Aug 22, 2004 - 04:48 |
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You have to remember that you are also losing 10k everytime a PZ decays. The free PZ wont stay worth 40k for very long due to that either. I think both Inq and M0nty overvalues having a full rooster of bad players. Halflings are not the rulers of the field! A player that starts to drop in AV will soon be useless to field, one block and he is out again. I would consider lineman without both the negatrait and my suggested advantage to be a better one. This leads me to a question. Is this team supposed to follow the fluff, but be intentionaly a bad team? I dont think I have much to add to the discussion if its ment to lose. Anyway, to correct the item that broke the non-negotiable rules , althou I personaly liked the previous one better:
NURGLE TEAMS
0-12 Plague Zombies 40,000 6 3 3 7 G(M)
0-4 Pestigors 80,000 6 3 3 8 Regenerate, Horns GS(M)
0-4 Rotters 110,000 4 4 2 9 Foul Appearance, Regenerate GS(M)
0-1 Beast of Nurgle 140,000 4 5 1 9 Foul Appearance, Loner, Mighty Blow, No Hands, Really Stupid, Regenerate, Tentacles S(M)
SPECIAL RULES
A Nurgle team may not have an apothecary. Instead the Nurgle team may add a new Plague Zombie for free after the game when updating the team roster. However, the coach must roll a D6 for each Plague Zombie on the team list after the game. For each result of 1, some of the Plague Zombie's flesh rots away and his AV is lowered by one - when it drops to 1, he dissolves into a pool of goo, and you must cross him off the team list! |
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^Spyrer^
Joined: Aug 19, 2004
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Aug 22, 2004 - 09:31 |
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what do you guys think about thick skull?
i think Thick skull on the PZs would reflect the toughness on the Nurgle teamside since they get KO'd less than normal.
I also was thinking that the loss of AV is too harsh. I don't think The rotting of their flesh would make them easier to damage, but harder since they get more mushy...
What if for example they would be something like this:
NURGLE TEAMS
0-12 Plague Zombies 50,000 6 3 3 9 Thick Skull G
0-4 Pestigors 80,000 6 3 3 8 Regenerate, Horns GS(M)
0-4 Rotters 110,000 4 4 2 9 Foul Appearance, Regenerate GS(M)
0-1 Beast of Nurgle 140,000 4 5 1 9 Foul Appearance, Loner, Mighty Blow, No Hands, Really Stupid, Regenerate, Tentacles S(M)
SPECIAL RULES
A Nurgle team may not have an apothecary. The coach must also roll a D6 for each Plague Zombie on the team list after the game. For each result of 1, some of the Plague Zombie's flesh rots away and his AV is lowered by one - when it drops to 1, he dissolves into a pool of goo, and you must cross him off the team list! When it drops to 6 the player gains Foul Appearance for free. |
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Jinxed
Joined: Jul 04, 2004
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Aug 22, 2004 - 10:12 |
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Would it not be a good idea to combine degenerate with some new (and free) mutations?
So you the plague zombie loses over the course of 5 skills (if he EVER lives that long without apo!) -2 MA, - AG and -2 AV for example but he GAINS horns and foul appearance.
Adding things up; 2 MA, 2 AV and AG = 7 points. horns, foul appearance and regeneration is exactly the same.
For example:
You'd start with MA:6 ST:3 AG:2 AV:9 (no skills, maybe thick skull)
You'd end up with MA:4 ST:3 AG:1 AV:7 horns, regeneration, foul appearance (plus 5 skills of course!)
1st skill roll; AV drops to 8
2nd skill roll: MA drops to 5 but gain horns
3rd skill roll; AG drops to 1
4th skill roll: MA drops to 4 but gain foul appearance
5th skill roll: AV drops to 7 but gains regeneration
The plague zombies would grow worse over time (=fluff) but have this compensated with certain mutations.
Just a thought... |
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Znail
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
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Aug 22, 2004 - 10:48 |
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Spyrer, looks ok. Maybe add (M) for the PZs and the extended infect rule:
Instead, if a player is blocked or fouled by a player from the Nurgle team and killed, then he is crossed off the opposing team roster as normal, but the Nurgle team may add a new Plague Zombie for free after the game when updating the team roster.
Jinxed, probobly too complex rule there. Might have worked else. |
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Kommando
Joined: Dec 08, 2003
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Aug 22, 2004 - 14:05 |
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nah, jinxed you made it too good, what you got in the end is something like this:
4 3 1 7 Regeneration, Foul Appearance, Horns, Block, Tackle, Pro, Dauntless, Pass Block |
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