DonKosak
Joined: Apr 06, 2004
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 Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 19:25 |
 
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| JanMattys wrote: | | It's all about different perception. You look at it as a tournament in ranked. Just that. I look at it from a fluff point of view. I mean... How lame is that to leave? |
I agree that it is a lame thing to leave the Fumbbl Cup just because you you're lacking some cas or some tds or whatever. But I really don't think that rules and punishment is the way to go if we want to alter this behaviour.
Let’s start with some basic facts:
Most of us play bloodbowl on Fumbbl
1) of our own free will and
2) to have fun
and we accept the rules (as stated in the LRB and the Fumbbl rules) because our accept hereof allows us to play bloodbowl
1) of our own free will and
2) to have fun.
The problems start if you try to implement rules that force people to play bloodbowl on Fumbbl
1) against their free will and/or
2) without having fun.
Such rules will lead to the behaviour seen in communities all over the world where the leaders try to make members of the community follow rules that they don’t agree with: People will act according to the strict wording of the rule but will ignore the intention behind the rule. Take this from a junior attorney who despite his young age and the fact that he practises in a little fairy-tale land called Denmark has seen numerous stupid attempts at rigid straining and literal interpretation of rules already 
This assumption leads to the conclusion that a rule stating that concession in a major Fumbbl tournament will cause banning from future major Fumbbl tournaments will be strained and circumvented.
If I was a coach participating in a major Fumbbl tournament under this rule and was losing interest in the game and wanted to end it as fast as possible my thoughts could go like this:
“Hmmm – those stupid Lavina Resting Heavenbirds have beaten my team to pulp and lead the game 3-0… Maybe I should concede….? Hmmm – no that would just earn me a ban from future tournaments. Hmmmm… but no rule stops me from moving the rest of my players near my endzone and then just press End Turn until it’s over – as long as I in some way can prove that I’m not playing to lose. But alas – some matches in the FC qualifier have shown us, that it is completely acceptable. Hooray, I’ll do that immediately!”
Result: the match ends exactly as boring and unworthy as a conceded match – maybe even worse.
The admins can then try to word some rules to catch and forbid this kind of behaviour too, but I guess we all can see where it will lead…
Conclusion: you can implement rules and try to force people to do something against their will but you can’t enforce it thoroughly in an online environment…
That’s why I think it is a bad idea. |
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Pmg
Joined: Nov 24, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 20:00 |
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I know when i'm beaten. I went to the quarter finals of Fumbbl Cup III playing woodies, and now half finals on the Fumbbl Cup IV, again playing woodies. I sacked a 5ag 77 wardancer with no injuries to get an handicap, a 79 spp Thrower with no injuries not to give 2 handicaps, just so i could go as far as possible. It was 2-2, my drive and a more than possible 3-2. Blitz and then another Blitz gave him the win. AS a good sportsman I KNOW WHEN I'VE LOST and as in ANY strategie game (chess, magic the gathering for example, where i conceded in a 4.000e game in PT London) so i took the honorable way (instead of beeing an ass and fouling his team as a petty revenge like many would have done) and gave him congrats for his good win. I just hate petty ppl. |
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sehou
Joined: Feb 04, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 20:48 |
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I agree with you PMG that concession is accessible to anyone, anytime... BUT for FC and other fumbbl official tourneys. If this is to be a community that has a sense of belonging, then uplifting certain events to higher status makes it easier. And that includes FC. I conceded more than my fair share of Ranked games. But if I had had my spot in FC (or one in futur Ulthuan), i would fight 'til my end of the pitch is empty. Still, beating MB loaded dwarves with woodies deserves a bow man. |
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Idolen
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:01 |
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Children. Dogs. Dysfunctinal adults. Fumbbl coaches.
These four groups of beings have 1 thing in common. You can't punish them AFTER they did something they didn't know was wrong. The point is that I haven't seen ANY official statement thet say you can't concede. I haven't seen anything official that it is frowned upon to concede. I would have done the same thing, instead of petty fouling revenge. The only way to handle this is to make it official in the NEXT cup that conceaders will be banned from all future cups. You can't change the rules of a major turney when it has started, just beacuse the Blood Falcons have gotten a little easier ride. Just wait and see til the final has been played, then we'll know if Nuffle favours the dark elves all the way or if he will dice rape 'em on the finish line.
Spelling and grammar may suck, but I hope you get my point. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:04 |
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| Pmg wrote: | | ... so i took the honorable way (instead of beeing an ass and fouling his team as a petty revenge like many would have done) and gave him congrats for his good win. I just hate petty ppl. |
This, I think, is where the difference of opinion lies. Some coaches think that the 'honourable' thing to do is to concede and not do 'gratuitous' damage to the opposition; other coaches think that the 'honourable' thing to do is to foul as much as possible, to give the other teams in the draw their best shot (rather than conceding and making their lives tougher against fresh opposition).
There is a solid, reasoned chain of argument behind both opinions: thus you are never going to get a rule on concessions in tournaments which makes everyone happy.
Personally, I have yet to concede (on the basis that the fans pay [sic] to see the full 32 turns, and shouldn't be short-changed). I would like to think that I would be even less likely to do so in a major tournament (were I so lucky as to qualify for one  ). But I recognise that others see the matter quite differently ... |
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tza
Joined: Aug 25, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:32 |
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| Pmg wrote: | | I know when i'm beaten. I went to the quarter finals of Fumbbl Cup III playing woodies, and now half finals on the Fumbbl Cup IV, again playing woodies. I sacked a 5ag 77 wardancer with no injuries to get an handicap, a 79 spp Thrower with no injuries not to give 2 handicaps, just so i could go as far as possible. It was 2-2, my drive and a more than possible 3-2. Blitz and then another Blitz gave him the win. AS a good sportsman I KNOW WHEN I'VE LOST and as in ANY strategie game (chess, magic the gathering for example, where i conceded in a 4.000e game in PT London) so i took the honorable way (instead of beeing an ass and fouling his team as a petty revenge like many would have done) and gave him congrats for his good win. I just hate petty ppl. |
In chess its actually good sports letting your oponent get the last few moves in for the mate.. |
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Captain1821
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:36 |
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BOO |
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STATUS: CLOWN |
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Captain1821
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:40 |
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| EvolveToAnarchism wrote: | | mymLaban wrote: | bah another conceed  and score was 2-3 !!! |
Thankfully the concession happened to a team already loaded up with cash. Otherwise, they could have been incredibly unbalancing. This has got me thinking that I'll likely be adding a new rule to the Official Rules page. I think there's a need to decrease the likelihood of grossly unfair concessions. I've got a couple of options:
1. Ban a coach who concedes from the next FUMBBL Major.
2. Retire the team that concedes.
3. Transfer the team that concedes to [U].
Any thoughts?
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Book of FUMBBL Lore (draft) |
My thought is that I don't think that ban would do anything while we see people that got banned from official tournaments to play in official tournaments again.
edit:
I'm sure that those that have been here for a while, remember names... |
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Ironik
Joined: Jun 28, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:47 |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:49 |
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I don't know how anyone got the idea that I'd retroactively change a rule. It's best to drop any thoughts of retroactive rules in the Official Tournaments. So long as a teams has followed all site and Official Tournament Rules that existed at the start of the tournament, they will not be sanctioned.
I brought up this matter because it's very likely that a concession rule will be added to the Official Tournament Rules for all future Official [R] Tournaments. An additional concession rule was add to the RRR (but not applied retroactively) because concessions are a lot more unbalancing with "rookie" teams.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism
Link |
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Colin
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 21:54 |
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| Idolen wrote: | | You can't punish them AFTER they did something they didn't know was wrong. The point is that I haven't seen ANY official statement thet say you can't concede. I haven't seen anything official that it is frowned upon to concede. I would have done the same thing, instead of petty fouling revenge. |
As I originally said, the tightening of such rules would have to be done with great care, especially in the definition of an 'unfair concession'.
I always assumed Evo was talking about changing the rules for future competitions, not this one - that would be grossly unfair.
I have seen too many coaches give up too quickly on games, either by conceding or fouling, on many occasions when if they applied themselves and put themselves in the right position (and prayed for major luck), they could pull a game out of the bag. Playing to the bitter end, in my mind, means trying to win, even if it's pretty hopeless and requires devine intervention/unbelievable plays. I've pulled off more than one draw when it looked like all was lost.
It is true that the LRB allows concession within a game. That is every coach's right. What happens outside of that game as a result, however, is pretty much up to the commishioner - the LRB's competition rules are not particularly strong and so most leagues use their own rules, as in the case of the FC and other major and minor tourneys, here and elsewhere.
The case for conceeding for self-preservation is not within the scope of this discussion, but I'd always take my winnings and hope the two guys left on the pitch survive - most of the harm has already been done at this point anyway. |
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DonKosak
Joined: Apr 06, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 22:20 |
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| Evo wrote: | | I brought up this matter because it's very likely that a concession rule will be added to the Official Tournament Rules for all future Official [R] Tournaments. |
I have to ask you, Evo: Why is it that you (and other admins?) want a rule against concession?
Would you rather like people to sit it through - clicking the End Turn button until the end of the match? |
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EvolveToAnarchism
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 22:33 |
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I really wanted to just watch this discussion progress, but since you explicitly asked me, I'll provide a few very brief ansers.
| DonKosak wrote: |
I have to ask you, Evo: Why is it that you (and other admins?) want a rule against concession? |
1. Unfair advantages
2. Open to abuse.
3. Premier tournaments
4. High stakes events
5. Background
| Quote: |
Would you rather like people to sit it through - clicking the End Turn button until the end of the match? |
Even though it's a straw man, I'll answer. No. But I'd prefer it over a concession giving a team an unfair advantage like a game deciding Star and Wizard because someone decides to take a premier FUMBBL tournament lightly.
So, yes, I don't mind that [R] tournaments would become high stakes tournaments where you have to be a committed coach. And if that's not your idea of fun, there are many other venues at FUMBBL to play in a manner you find fun. It's not like anyone would be forcing you to play against your will or something.
As Always,
Evolve To Anarchism |
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Pmg
Joined: Nov 24, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 22:37 |
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So woulnd't it be quite more fair to simply just deny the extra mvp and estra earnings from a concession, when it would happen in a fumbbl oficial tourney? That way people who opt for conceding would keep their right to declare a game lost, and it wouldn't influence the winners of the game. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Dec 14, 2005 - 22:39 |
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I just want to point out that I didn't mean PMG (or others) had to stay on the pitch to foul till turn 16.
But to stay on the pitch, blitz every turn, force the opponent to throw blocks (double skulls happen) and roll dice yes, I think it could be done.
When I say "do not concede" I don't mean "act like a jerk with the only purpose to hurt". |
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