JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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 Posted:
Feb 01, 2016 - 15:41 |
 
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Pro is for:
* big guys
* Vamps
* Jump-POMBers
* Dauntless players
* G-only players who won't stop rolling normal skillls and you don't want to retire
Ranked Amateurs had a guy with ST5, Block, Tackle, and Pro. Since the team had no Dodge, Albert Palehawk's Pro skill made him my mobile threat and my secondary hitter (after Edward Grottybrook, of course). Pro-rerolling 3d blocks with Block and Tackle made him pretty reliable as a knockdown machine. |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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Feb 01, 2016 - 15:49 |
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@bghandras, I agree that it is a good investment on some players. I'm not really making an argument against pro as much as stating why *I* don't use it, which may have not been clear in what I said.
Most of the game (and also team development for me) I spend trying to minimize my risks of critical failures. I try to win by having VERY FEW game-losing failures while trying to set my opponent up for many such chances. I think pro is a skill that encourages riskier plays - otherwise you don't get use out of it. So while it can be effective, *I* don't use it much both because I think it would encourage me to do certain things that I would turn out to regret and also because in practice I don't use it as much even when I have it.
Basically, to use pro effectively would mean changing the way I take risks in several other areas. I've recently started taking less Piling On as well, because on certain teams if you HAVE it you really need to do things differently than the "normal game plan" and then if it doesn't work you are way out of position because you're protecting this prone PO player from a foul rather than playing defense. If I have the PO and only use it 3-6 times a game then it's a much less effective skill, so taking something else in some cases (guard for example, on an elf team) I find helps the style of game that I am already playing.
Just my thoughts of course, the rest of you: please, keep taking pro.  |
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Killing_Time
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
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Feb 01, 2016 - 15:55 |
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Thanks a lot for all the insights.
It seems a lot of people feel the same regarding Pro so I don't feel quite so stupid anymore.
The utility of it on other non-TO skills such as dauntless and jump up is interesting. And I do appreciate why it could be a good idea on skill-stack players for use after the team RR has gone, but I'm still not convinced that in many cases another skill (especially one that offers a built in re-roll) wouldn't be better. |
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Acheron143
Joined: Sep 13, 2011
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Feb 01, 2016 - 16:09 |
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Players I use Pro on a lot. (3rd doubles on a big guy)
Frenzy blitzers who roll double block. (its gravy if it works)
Jump up blocks that aren't critical.
WE Wardancers and Slann Blitzers who go into harms way too much and need more than just 1 dodge, 1 TRR and such to get by. (later skill but somewhat useful if they don't roll stats)
Vampires are obvious for Bloodlust purposes. (better not to bite but failure doesn't matter too much.
Its a 20k skill, that was people point out most teams rerolls are 25-35k a half. So use it twice a game and your way ahead.
But I am also the guy who usually hires a cheer leader and a assistant coach on most teams to try and "steal" a RR or two. |
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akaRenton
Joined: Apr 15, 2008
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Feb 01, 2016 - 20:14 |
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A lot of good responses here. An example of Pro having been exactly the right choice for a player is Cody Leung XIX. I've lost count of how many times pro has been used by him, it's great for bashy players as it gives you a second shot at some damage without wasting RR's. With frenzy and pro he basically gets 3 shots at doing some damage (4 if you absolutely have to take them down and can burn an RR too). Admittedly he's a novelty player on a novelty team, but you get the idea. 100 Cas in 105 matches suggests it's working for him. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Feb 01, 2016 - 20:18 |
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Antithesisoftime
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
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Feb 01, 2016 - 20:24 |
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This is an example of why vamps need Pro. If not for Pro, I'd have probably been even more embarrassed than a 0-4 loss.
Honestly, any player with Dauntless is worth putting Pro on. To a lesser extent, so is a player with Jump-Up. Pro's value increases on players who have skills that require dice rolls, but don't normally end turns (such as RRing a failed dauntless or Jump-Up roll). It's there to alleviate the annoyance of burning team RRs on non turn ending rolls.
On vamps, I actually consider it a second skill after block or dodge. On big guys, a second double, after block, or 3rd after dodge. I would take it 4th or 5th on the right Troll Slayer or Norse Runner, and I have a marauder on my Pact team who might consider Pro at legend because his build is block, MB, tackle, claw, dauntless, and Pro would make him a better big guy killer. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 01, 2016 - 20:30 |
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Here is my take on PRO
PRO is a attack skill. Sure it is good on the big guys, which I take pro before block, I understand the vamps.
BUT
It works great on a PO JumpUp guy. Well in order to take Pro you had to roll that first double to take JumpUp. So right there, it is limited big time.
Here is why you take PRO first and not Jump Up.
Lets take a test team. A bunch of Dorfs. They come with block, so ideal. You force take Pro on all their first skill ups.
So in time you have 11 dorf with pro at their 6+ SPP roll.
PRO in mass, now, is very POWERFUL.
They throw 50 blocks in a match. 25 knock down their foe. You reroll with pro the remaining 25 and get another 13 knock downs.
Then average that over 10 games. You now have 130 more knockdowns than a normal dorf team who never takes Pro.
So, in that 10 game spread, by taking Pro over MB or G you are now inflicting more KO+ results in those 130 blocks than if you went the traditional MB/G spam and spread it out.
Well, well, well, Mr PainState that does not jive. You be lucky in your example to garner 6-7 more knockdowns. Cool, so with PRO you are now only knocking your foe down 60-70 more times than taking MB/G.
I rest my case.
Here is the problem with pro. It is a skill that is best used in mass to compound its effect across a roster. Thus only Dwarf or Norse really benefit from mass Pro.
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Feb 01, 2016 - 20:33 |
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| Killing_Time wrote: | Thanks a lot for all the insights.
It seems a lot of people feel the same regarding Pro so I don't feel quite so stupid anymore.
The utility of it on other non-TO skills such as dauntless and jump up is interesting. And I do appreciate why it could be a good idea on skill-stack players for use after the team RR has gone, but I'm still not convinced that in many cases another skill (especially one that offers a built in re-roll) wouldn't be better. |
POJUs are the ideal candidates for Pro. When looking at berzerkers, the platonic ideal of a POJU building since they already come with the JU - MB/PO/Tackle, then what? Guard? Not utilized that much when you're POing and POing over and over again. Standfirm? You're POing mostly to avoid retaliatory blocks - Juggernaut, that's pretty good.
I like knocking fools out of the game with teams that are capable of doing it, so it might not suit you. |
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pythrr
Joined: Mar 07, 2006
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Feb 01, 2016 - 20:44 |
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pro al;ways gets me into trouble, as i'm an idiot |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Feb 01, 2016 - 20:45 |
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| PainState wrote: | They throw 50 blocks in a match. 25 knock down their foe. You reroll with pro the remaining 25 and get another 6 knock downs.
Then average that over 10 games. You now have 62.5 more knockdowns than a normal dorf team who never takes Pro. |
FIFY. If a block is 50% to knockdown (k, it's 5/9, 3/4, 1/2, or 1/3 most of the time, but let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right and it averages 50%), a Pro block is 62.5% to knockdown, not 75% (that's a block with TRR).
62.5 extra knockdowns doesn't compare in damage terms to adding MB on 250 knockdowns. MB is basically double damage. Pro is, at best, more or less 25% more damage. Probably less than that.
The upside to Pro comes in as a late skill. 'Cause Pro and MB stack. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Feb 01, 2016 - 20:52 |
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Ok, lets look at some math to make my case PRO is a really good skill to consider early in a build.
PRO is a attack skill, it increases the % to knock a player down.
You block a No skill player and you have block
84.375% to knock with Pro
75% with out pro
You block a player with Block
67.901 with pro
55.556 with out pro
You block a player with blodge and you have no tackle
41.165 with pro
30.556 with out pro
Those are the odds.
You can see that PRO is a dramatic increase of odds to knock down, especially against players with blodge and block. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Feb 01, 2016 - 21:01 |
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I prefer having 1 or 2 pro on a team. As long as i have 1, then i can leave the pro action to the end, so the ocassional pro into turnover is not an issue. In such case i only need to weight if i use a team reroll (assuming i did not used up for the turn already). |
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Reisender
Joined: Sep 29, 2007
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Feb 01, 2016 - 21:01 |
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Pro is also known to be great in succeeding the pro roll and roll double skulls on an unimportant block. |
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Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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Feb 01, 2016 - 21:02 |
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How about Pro on a Right Stuff player to help with landing after TTM? For a desperate last turn Touchdown, when all TRR's are gone. Also useful for that extra dodge necessary for that touchdonw, or the catch. Sounds pretty useful to me, but interested what others think. |
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