FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 01:29

Dalfort wrote:

MattDakka wrote:

I guess you are mistaking Time Wasting rule, which is a thing, with time stalling, i.e. deliberately not moving any player on your turn, or not choosing to use Stand Firm or Side Step and wasting real life time to grief the opponent.

Thinking that opponents are not active just to grief you is solipsistic. Hope I've used my new word correctly...

You did.

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 08:09

mrt1212 wrote:

Dalfort wrote:

MattDakka wrote:

I guess you are mistaking Time Wasting rule, which is a thing, with time stalling, i.e. deliberately not moving any player on your turn, or not choosing to use Stand Firm or Side Step and wasting real life time to grief the opponent.

Thinking that opponents are not active just to grief you is solipsistic. Hope I've used my new word correctly...

You did.

It's a good word. Glad to see it spreading

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Joost

Joined: Mar 17, 2014

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 08:10

koadah wrote:

Christer wrote:

If there is no mention of the 4 minute per turn rule and timing out, this option will be disabled in the Competitive division.

Note, though, that "time stalling" will continue to be against the rules of the site.

Are you sure that you are not taking this adhering to the official rules thing a bit too far?

I had that same thought, or the rule of having 90 minutes available for game will have to be stretched to maybe 2 hours. Some coaches will certainly make games much longer on a regular basis.

JimmyFantastic

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 12:11

Regardless of the official BB2020 rules FUMBBL cannot function without a time limit of some form.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 12:33

Yes, without time limit, it's hard to predict how long a match will last.
It could create issues, I play only when I'm sure I can spend at least 90 minutes, but with new rules I could have to spend 2 hours or more.
The game could be interrupted and resumed later, but it is a hassle.

Garion wrote:

It's a good word. Glad to see it spreading

Sure it is good!
It has Latin (the ancient language of my country) etymology: "solus + ipse".

Anyway, it's not important if opponent is deliberately griefing or just genuinely slow, what is sure is his time waste.
Why after 3 days a game is automatically conceded by admin?
Because time wasting is not acceptable.
Concession by admin doesn't care about whether the leave was deliberate or accidental, just forces the end of the game to ensure a smooth running of the games and site working properly, otherwise everybody could leave a game never to return and no game would be finished.
The leaver's reason is not relevant because we can't check what happened, it could be only if we could check for sure what the leaver (or time waster, in case of turn) was doing.
If something can't be checked, it can't be used as excuse for delaying a turn/game. If you could use an excuse, then no concession by admin would happen.
Use logic. Be committed and respect site rules and your opponent as well. Time is currency of life, don't waste other people's time.

Strider84

Joined: Jun 03, 2009

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 13:31

For me it's a bit of a different game. I like the speed bowl / blitz pit aspect where you really are under time pressure and rarely anyone can play a perfect game he would play with more time. Similar to the classic vs Blitz Chess games.

Official divisions should be fine to have unlimited time, honestly if you play a slow player and he takes 3.5 to 4 minutes every turn and now takes 6 min for 2 specific turns that does not make a difference. majority of the people will still play in normal speed. there is only so much you can calculate.

I would welcome to see 1 of the majors being the speed major with one minute turns for example, which will challenge a bit a different skillset especially on high TV.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 13:36

1 minute turn games would favour agile teams, able to move the ball greaty without needing to throw many blocks to advance.
BB1 had 40 seconds timer and agile teams were good with that time limit.
You (generic you) can be very good, but if you play a slow and clumsy team you do need to throw blocks to advance (so you will use more time per turn than agile teams, on average, not because you are a worse coach), for example Tomb Kings are not a kind of team able to move the ball a lot every turn, they need to mark/block a lot to advance.
Dwarfs as well, 1 minute turn would be something like Blitz and Leap Bowl.
I like agile teams, but 1 minute would narrow down the playable races, in my opinion.

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %21, %2020 - %13:%Aug; edited 5 times in total

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 13:38

Strider84 wrote:

Official divisions should be fine to have unlimited time, honestly if you play a slow player and he takes 3.5 to 4 minutes every turn and now takes 6 min for 2 specific turns that does not make a difference. majority of the people will still play in normal speed. there is only so much you can calculate..

6 minutes?

Clearly, having a 4 minute limit has made us soft. We should be able to play a match for five days like cricket.

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Bram

Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 13:59

uzkulak wrote:

Shorter turns encourages less exciting and expansive play in my opinion. Im not a fan of it. I tried BB1 with 2 min turns and you are basically forced to just do a basic blitz/cage routine or risk getting timed out. There are already enough penalties in the game for trying to do something more interesting.

It also penalises newer players.

+1

Christer

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 14:28

FUMBBL Staff

koadah wrote:

Christer wrote:

If there is no mention of the 4 minute per turn rule and timing out, this option will be disabled in the Competitive division.

Note, though, that "time stalling" will continue to be against the rules of the site.

Are you sure that you are not taking this adhering to the official rules thing a bit too far?

I genuinely don't think so in this case.

Look at it from the perspective of people who get into Blood Bowl by buying the bb2020 set. They read the rules, play a couple of games with their friends, after which those other friends fade off or a pandemic hits the world and you're unable to play tabletop. You find your way to FUMBBL and all of a sudden someone times you out, and you have no reasonable way to know what that's about.

I think maintaining rules parity is important so that people joining the site will know what to expect (apart from their own misconceptions about the rules).

Add to that the fact that timeouts are among the most common ways people get upset at each-other (meaning staff has to deal with issues stemming from a timeout), and a complex thing to manage. Consider how you'd act on the tabletop if your opponent had to go for a bathroom break or deal with the proverbial cat on fire (important phonecall or whatever). There is no effective online equivalent where you can't be sure if the opponent left the table.

Shraaaag

Joined: Feb 15, 2004

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 16:32

Christer wrote:

Note, though, that "time stalling" will continue to be against the rules of the site.

Code of Conduct wrote:

Intentionally delaying the game by for example not ending your turn or by waiting for extended periods of time before moving is not allowed.

How is this/will this be enforced?
I understand the rules are on purpose written to make room for interpretation. With no time limit, and no (good) way to distinguish between time stalling, RL incident, slow connection or just spending a long time to contemplate your next view, wont this create more hassle for the staff?

At least with a soft time limit, most coaches are nice enough to let you know if they had to tend to RL incidents or if connection was slow before the 4 minutes was up.

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Welsh_Cthulu

Joined: Aug 06, 2020

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 17:09

Christer wrote:

koadah wrote:

Christer wrote:

If there is no mention of the 4 minute per turn rule and timing out, this option will be disabled in the Competitive division.

Note, though, that "time stalling" will continue to be against the rules of the site.

Are you sure that you are not taking this adhering to the official rules thing a bit too far?

I genuinely don't think so in this case.

Look at it from the perspective of people who get into Blood Bowl by buying the bb2020 set. They read the rules, play a couple of games with their friends, after which those other friends fade off or a pandemic hits the world and you're unable to play tabletop. You find your way to FUMBBL and all of a sudden someone times you out, and you have no reasonable way to know what that's about.

I think maintaining rules parity is important so that people joining the site will know what to expect (apart from their own misconceptions about the rules).

Add to that the fact that timeouts are among the most common ways people get upset at each-other (meaning staff has to deal with issues stemming from a timeout), and a complex thing to manage. Consider how you'd act on the tabletop if your opponent had to go for a bathroom break or deal with the proverbial cat on fire (important phonecall or whatever). There is no effective online equivalent where you can't be sure if the opponent left the table.

So to be clear, when the new rules are implemented on FUMBBL, there won't be any turn limits?

Mingoose

Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 17:41

Christer wrote:

Look at it from the perspective of people who get into Blood Bowl by buying the bb2020 set. They read the rules, play a couple of games with their friends, after which those other friends fade off or a pandemic hits the world and you're unable to play tabletop. You find your way to FUMBBL and all of a sudden someone times you out, and you have no reasonable way to know what that's about.

Hmmm, I guess I can see that, but isn't that easily addressed by a big warning on the help page or something? And honestly, as a new player, the odds of me correctly playing all the rules in my small TT group is 0%. There *will* be rules that new players are blindsided by. In my original TT group we assumed you couldn't reroll block dice, only D6. It was a very different game we played lol.

Do you think a new player would get timed out and immediately rage quit FUMBBL? I think any that would do that probably aren't the greatest asset to the site.

DrDeath

Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 17:57

The Blood Bowl 2 ladders shifted to 2 minutes, and that was a massive mistake I think - it resulted in lower activations. I tried a few games on BB2 and absolutely hated it, mainly for this reason. My PC is a bit laggy, sometimes I just could not play through quick enough... or something in real life pops up. You get one problem turn and you've lost - not a good experience. I would agree 4 mins can sometimes seem a bit long onscreen - 3 mins would be ok especially here on FUMBBL, after all we're not moving pieces like on TT. But 4 mins is the rule and not too bad, and after all folks rarely enforce timeouts on here anyway. If it ain't broke why fix it... esp. when 2 mins could be an awful lot worse.

Mingoose

Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Posted: Aug 21, 2020 - 17:59

DrDeath wrote:

I tried a few games on BB2 and absolutely hated it, mainly for this reason.

Let's be honest though, BB2 is just terrible in every way vs. FUMBBL.