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2015-01-07 14:21:51
26 votes, rating 5.7
26 votes, rating 5.7
Sad news for freedom of speech
This morning, two assholes (sorry about that word, but I can't find any other) armed with AK47s and (supposedly) a rocket launcher have entered the newsroom of a French satirical magazine and started shooting the journalists. 12 people are dead already, including the 2 most famous caricaturists Cabu and Charb.
The magazine was called Charlie Hebdo. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo
It was the symbol of freedom of thought in France. I did not agree with everything in this newspaper, but it was also the only magazine without any taboo. A few years ago, they published the Danish Muhammad caricatures, for the sole reason no one else wanted to in France, and because they caricature the Church every week. The magazine was bombed soon after. And now they have finished the job.
I don't know what to say...
(But please, don't make it an anti-Islam thing - all the fanatics, no matter what their religion is, are responsible.)
The magazine was called Charlie Hebdo. You can read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo
It was the symbol of freedom of thought in France. I did not agree with everything in this newspaper, but it was also the only magazine without any taboo. A few years ago, they published the Danish Muhammad caricatures, for the sole reason no one else wanted to in France, and because they caricature the Church every week. The magazine was bombed soon after. And now they have finished the job.
I don't know what to say...
(But please, don't make it an anti-Islam thing - all the fanatics, no matter what their religion is, are responsible.)
Comments
Posted by Rabe on 2015-01-07 14:26:25
Yeah, just heard it in the news. Didn't want to believe it. :-(
Posted by bigGuy on 2015-01-07 14:59:42
Now all papers should print front page articles "Should people die for printing this?" and big fat caricature in the middle.
Posted by grunth on 2015-01-07 15:00:28
vive la république, vive la loi de 1905, vive la laïcité, vive la liberté d'expression, et vive la France !
Posted by Strider84 on 2015-01-07 15:00:40
I just read bomb and fanatic. Must have been Goblins...
Posted by grunth on 2015-01-07 15:00:53
no passaran
Posted by PaddyMick on 2015-01-07 15:02:24
Very sad news. A tragedy for the families and France/Europe first and foremost. Also a blow for free speech, and more fuel for the war on terror.
Posted by grunth on 2015-01-07 15:05:22
and as say Kam : no anti-islam thing, please :)
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-07 15:08:04
No pasaran, indeed.
And +1, bigGuy.
And +1, bigGuy.
Posted by PainState on 2015-01-07 15:14:49
It is a sad day indeed.
BUT I will respect Kam's wishes in this matter about the fanatics. All I will say is that all fanatics are not responsible for what happened, we know what group of fanatics did this.
BUT I will respect Kam's wishes in this matter about the fanatics. All I will say is that all fanatics are not responsible for what happened, we know what group of fanatics did this.
Posted by the.tok on 2015-01-07 15:16:48
I'm really shocked too. This newspaper had a really special and important place in french media. They've been mocking everyone for such a long time, almost an institution, reminding that everything can be criticized.
Their very existence was the symbol of press freedom.
Seeing Cabu, Charb and Wolinsky dead, really... I can't imagine that :-(
Their very existence was the symbol of press freedom.
Seeing Cabu, Charb and Wolinsky dead, really... I can't imagine that :-(
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-07 15:17:12
Well, my wishes do not matter much, but that would be the victims' and their families' wishes. Thanks.
Posted by Roland on 2015-01-07 15:22:31
Wtf! Seriously? This is silly. A big step backwards in time....
Posted by Calcium on 2015-01-07 15:25:58
Mans inhumanity to man highlighted once again....so tragic.
Posted by happygrue on 2015-01-07 15:28:34
A very sad day, indeed. Terror only works when we change our behavior because of it. I hope clear-headed actions will prevail in the face of this tragedy. The remaining Boston Marathon bomber trial is just beginning over here, and the Marathon went on "as normal" again last year. I hope that people in France and elsewhere will step up and continue do satire and journalism and not be deterred by the danger. But in the meantime, our hearts go out to the victims.
Posted by grunth on 2015-01-07 15:31:16
VIVE CHARLIE HEBDO, VIVE LA REPUBLIQUE ET VIVE LA LIBERTE D'EXPRESSION, PARTOUT DANS LE MONDE !!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Chainsaw on 2015-01-07 15:32:48
By all accounts, all religious ones anyway, God is a total asshole.
Those that act out in their deity/deities name are no less of an asshole.
Oh, did somebody offend your fictional ancient myth? You want to kill them? That makes you the scum of the earth.
Those that act out in their deity/deities name are no less of an asshole.
Oh, did somebody offend your fictional ancient myth? You want to kill them? That makes you the scum of the earth.
Posted by grunth on 2015-01-07 15:33:30
+1
Posted by Arktoris on 2015-01-07 15:39:41
sounds like you can only poke a lion's face with a stick for so long before it bites your head off.
Posted by the.tok on 2015-01-07 15:48:18
I'm really afraid of the impact this will have for our country.
We lose one of the strongest anti-conformist voice, our most talented caricaturists and give a bone to all kind of extremists all at the same time.
And with really bad timing on top of that.
For now, everyone's decent enough, but I don't even want to see the political impact. And they were part of what was balancing extremism. I hope the tribute will live up to them, and that new voices will rise.
We have to stay united in the meanwhile
We lose one of the strongest anti-conformist voice, our most talented caricaturists and give a bone to all kind of extremists all at the same time.
And with really bad timing on top of that.
For now, everyone's decent enough, but I don't even want to see the political impact. And they were part of what was balancing extremism. I hope the tribute will live up to them, and that new voices will rise.
We have to stay united in the meanwhile
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-07 16:04:20
One of the last drawing by Charb. It was supposed to be published this week:
http://jssnews.com/content/assets/2015/01/charb.jpg
"No bombing yet in France.
- Wait, we have until the end of the month to present our best wishes!"
RIP
http://jssnews.com/content/assets/2015/01/charb.jpg
"No bombing yet in France.
- Wait, we have until the end of the month to present our best wishes!"
RIP
Posted by Jeguan on 2015-01-07 16:25:23
Truly a VERY sad day :(
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-07 16:40:30
Demonstration in memory of the victims are being organized in France and around the world. You can find the map here:
http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2015/01/07/charlie-hebdo-la-carte-des-rassemblements-d-hommage-en-france_4550916_4355770.html
http://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2015/01/07/charlie-hebdo-la-carte-des-rassemblements-d-hommage-en-france_4550916_4355770.html
Posted by KS on 2015-01-07 17:05:22
I only heard the end of the News and that's somerwhere in France. They published the recorded noises of the gunfire on the radio here, that a witness has recorded or filmed with some medium (I think smartphone).
Posted by Subs on 2015-01-07 17:23:21
No passaran!
I am so sad right now...... All the drawers i like still i was a child.... Madness...
I am so sad right now...... All the drawers i like still i was a child.... Madness...
Posted by El_Dude on 2015-01-07 18:38:00
Terrible, and upsetting, for the people involved and for what's at stake; the freedom to think and to publish, and even to offend, are some of the most important that we have. As one of the UK's satirists Ian Hislop said this afternoon, "very little seems funny today".
Viva Charlie.
Viva Charlie.
Posted by Nextflux on 2015-01-07 19:07:20
Tears of sadness from the world! Im sure it will inspire others to write more though.
Posted by fidius on 2015-01-07 19:54:30
Je suis Charlie.
Posted by albinv on 2015-01-07 19:59:55
If people were strong enough to live without god a lot of problems would be solved.
Sadly this is the stone age still. What may lead us to think different is just a very thin surface.
Gotta be with PS and Chainsaw here (doh!). It must be clearlyy adressed which group of religious fundamentalists is the problem and thats perfectly possible without being islamophobic.
One can only hope the islamic community itself will make serious efforts to educate its people and open itself for criticism.
There is indeed an inherent cultural problem but sadly the islamic communities do very little to address it.
Looking at the latest politics in turkey which they tried to sell the sheeples (yes - that would be us) as a "bridge to europe" and a modern form of an islamic state - there is just little factual reason to have hope.
My thoughts and condolences are with france today - the only worthwhile ally germany has atm.
Sadly this is the stone age still. What may lead us to think different is just a very thin surface.
Gotta be with PS and Chainsaw here (doh!). It must be clearlyy adressed which group of religious fundamentalists is the problem and thats perfectly possible without being islamophobic.
One can only hope the islamic community itself will make serious efforts to educate its people and open itself for criticism.
There is indeed an inherent cultural problem but sadly the islamic communities do very little to address it.
Looking at the latest politics in turkey which they tried to sell the sheeples (yes - that would be us) as a "bridge to europe" and a modern form of an islamic state - there is just little factual reason to have hope.
My thoughts and condolences are with france today - the only worthwhile ally germany has atm.
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-07 21:03:36
This is going to be a long post, but it has to go out.
If you're asking about my personal beliefs, I 100% agree with Chainsaw. But I don't want to talk about it, because that's neither the place nor the time to do so.
France has always been a divided country, pretty much like the UK, except we don't have 4 large regions with strong cultural differences (like England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland), we have 10 or 15 (and just in case you didn't know, yeah, I'm French :D): Brittany, Corsica, the Basque Country, Alsace, Savoy, and I could go on. During a long time, there wasn't even a common language (I'm talking about the Middle Age, and, basically, until the French Revolution). Uniting the country was a big deal, and wasn't easy. Regional languages were banned, revolts drowned in blood, but it kinda worked. Somehow. Then the country had to face another challenge in the post-colonial era: housing millions of immigrants from all around the world, with a different culture, a different language, and, often, a different religion.
If I'm not mistaken, France has the largest Muslim community in Europe (about 5 millions). And... it's working pretty well. The reason? One of the pillars of the republic: religion is one thing, politics is another thing, and they musn't interfere. Religion belongs to the private sphere, politics to the public sphere. It doesn't matter what you believe in, but keep it for yourself. That's basically how the French state works. I'm an atheist. My brother is married with a Muslim (and even if he doesn't want to tell us, he's one as well - it's a matter of jokes in the family). My father was a seminarian when he met my mother. My sister used to date a Jew. And it has never been an issue.
I am very critical of my country, especially after so many years spent in foreign countries, but there is something I really admire: it's that unity around the fact religion is something that belongs to the private sphere. And everybody agrees on that. Almost everybody. We couldn't have a political like the CDU in France for instance ("Christian" Democratic Party). We even used to have a royalist party when I was young (yeah, you can laugh :D), but having a political party whose name refers to a religion would be unthinkable.
During my first long distance trip (about 10 years ago - I spent 3 years travelling in Europe and Asia), 2 events moved me and, for once, made me proud to be born in this country.
The first one occurred after a succession of attacks against synagogues (we later discovered that the author was Jewish as well). The Jewish community was understandably getting a bit paranoid, and that's when the Israeli minister of foreign affairs chose to come to France to have a speech about how the Jews in France were in danger and should move to Israel. And they replied with one voice, despite the fact they generally are strong supporters of Israel: "mind your own business, this is a matter of domestic policy".
The second event occurred soon after. That was not so long after the beginning of the second was in Iraq (to which, I remind, France didn't participate). Several journalists had already been kidnapped there, and when that happened, the abductors would ask their country's army to withdraw. But of course, that something they couldn't do when they kidnapped 2 French journalists. So instead, they asked the country to cancel a law that had just been voted about the prohibition of religious symbols - including the Muslim scarf - at school. And as soon as that was known, the (female) members of a newly created association against this law took a plane to Baghdad, and spoke and the radio, asking the abductor to take them hostage instead of the journalists.
Of course, nothing is or was perfect. There was, and there is tensions between the communities - increasingly, probably. And that's the game of the fundamentalists. They are trying to divide the society, with barbarous acts of terror. They're trying to turn it into a war between the Muslim and the rest of the country. But it's not going to happen - hopefully - and 99% of the Muslims in France have nothing to do with that ideology.
And against, if you ask me, I'd say "get rid of the religions altogether, and you'd get rid of a lot of troubles around the world". But in the meantime, I respect your beliefs and what you do in private. And that's how the country can still go strong, despite (or thanks to) the multiculturalism.
If you're asking about my personal beliefs, I 100% agree with Chainsaw. But I don't want to talk about it, because that's neither the place nor the time to do so.
France has always been a divided country, pretty much like the UK, except we don't have 4 large regions with strong cultural differences (like England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland), we have 10 or 15 (and just in case you didn't know, yeah, I'm French :D): Brittany, Corsica, the Basque Country, Alsace, Savoy, and I could go on. During a long time, there wasn't even a common language (I'm talking about the Middle Age, and, basically, until the French Revolution). Uniting the country was a big deal, and wasn't easy. Regional languages were banned, revolts drowned in blood, but it kinda worked. Somehow. Then the country had to face another challenge in the post-colonial era: housing millions of immigrants from all around the world, with a different culture, a different language, and, often, a different religion.
If I'm not mistaken, France has the largest Muslim community in Europe (about 5 millions). And... it's working pretty well. The reason? One of the pillars of the republic: religion is one thing, politics is another thing, and they musn't interfere. Religion belongs to the private sphere, politics to the public sphere. It doesn't matter what you believe in, but keep it for yourself. That's basically how the French state works. I'm an atheist. My brother is married with a Muslim (and even if he doesn't want to tell us, he's one as well - it's a matter of jokes in the family). My father was a seminarian when he met my mother. My sister used to date a Jew. And it has never been an issue.
I am very critical of my country, especially after so many years spent in foreign countries, but there is something I really admire: it's that unity around the fact religion is something that belongs to the private sphere. And everybody agrees on that. Almost everybody. We couldn't have a political like the CDU in France for instance ("Christian" Democratic Party). We even used to have a royalist party when I was young (yeah, you can laugh :D), but having a political party whose name refers to a religion would be unthinkable.
During my first long distance trip (about 10 years ago - I spent 3 years travelling in Europe and Asia), 2 events moved me and, for once, made me proud to be born in this country.
The first one occurred after a succession of attacks against synagogues (we later discovered that the author was Jewish as well). The Jewish community was understandably getting a bit paranoid, and that's when the Israeli minister of foreign affairs chose to come to France to have a speech about how the Jews in France were in danger and should move to Israel. And they replied with one voice, despite the fact they generally are strong supporters of Israel: "mind your own business, this is a matter of domestic policy".
The second event occurred soon after. That was not so long after the beginning of the second was in Iraq (to which, I remind, France didn't participate). Several journalists had already been kidnapped there, and when that happened, the abductors would ask their country's army to withdraw. But of course, that something they couldn't do when they kidnapped 2 French journalists. So instead, they asked the country to cancel a law that had just been voted about the prohibition of religious symbols - including the Muslim scarf - at school. And as soon as that was known, the (female) members of a newly created association against this law took a plane to Baghdad, and spoke and the radio, asking the abductor to take them hostage instead of the journalists.
Of course, nothing is or was perfect. There was, and there is tensions between the communities - increasingly, probably. And that's the game of the fundamentalists. They are trying to divide the society, with barbarous acts of terror. They're trying to turn it into a war between the Muslim and the rest of the country. But it's not going to happen - hopefully - and 99% of the Muslims in France have nothing to do with that ideology.
And against, if you ask me, I'd say "get rid of the religions altogether, and you'd get rid of a lot of troubles around the world". But in the meantime, I respect your beliefs and what you do in private. And that's how the country can still go strong, despite (or thanks to) the multiculturalism.
Posted by PainState on 2015-01-07 21:14:15
We have not even finished the day over in the "States" but the media over here is starting to voice their thoughts that is was Charlie Hebdo's fault that this happened and not the two guys who blew up the place and went storming down the streets killing even more people. Now of course they are responsible for their actions BUT other "forces" in the universe compelled them to do it.
Keep your eyes open for the next few days because I think that will be the narrative for the rest of the week.
Keep your eyes open for the next few days because I think that will be the narrative for the rest of the week.
Posted by Sammler_der_Seelen on 2015-01-07 21:18:59
Good text and i can only say ,assholes all around the world and it makes no sense for me to label them only for religions.Its pretty simple ,anybody who kills for a god or something other useless thing (in my eyes)is an asshole and stands beside of humanity.With religion or without.
Posted by licker on 2015-01-07 21:22:02
So this wasn't the FN stirring the pot?
Or will it just be the push the FN needs to take the next round of elections?
Let's face it, France for all that it does well does have a huge problem with integration many North Africans refuse to accept.
Perhaps that issue plays more strongly in the south where my wifes family lives, but it is a huge issue. Le Pen was able to come 2nd once, now his daughter is poised to come 1st. Perhaps. Perhaps not. Again, it can be a very regional thing as you pointed out.
So while it's fine to say that 99% of the muslims are not 'the' problem (though I would debate the number, but the number isn't important, the majority are not 'the problem'), what does matter is what public sentiment says. Which isn't to say France is about to kick out all the muslims (we're not talking about gypsies here...). It is to say though that in various parts of France, there are enclaves which are problems. Or at least perceived as problems. It is a serious problem.
I won't bother offering a solution though, I'm just speculating that this is terrible news, and a terrible tragedy (I liked that newspaper), but it's also going to wind up an opportunity for the FN. Which is probably a bad thing too.
Or will it just be the push the FN needs to take the next round of elections?
Let's face it, France for all that it does well does have a huge problem with integration many North Africans refuse to accept.
Perhaps that issue plays more strongly in the south where my wifes family lives, but it is a huge issue. Le Pen was able to come 2nd once, now his daughter is poised to come 1st. Perhaps. Perhaps not. Again, it can be a very regional thing as you pointed out.
So while it's fine to say that 99% of the muslims are not 'the' problem (though I would debate the number, but the number isn't important, the majority are not 'the problem'), what does matter is what public sentiment says. Which isn't to say France is about to kick out all the muslims (we're not talking about gypsies here...). It is to say though that in various parts of France, there are enclaves which are problems. Or at least perceived as problems. It is a serious problem.
I won't bother offering a solution though, I'm just speculating that this is terrible news, and a terrible tragedy (I liked that newspaper), but it's also going to wind up an opportunity for the FN. Which is probably a bad thing too.
Posted by koadah on 2015-01-07 21:26:51
If God didn't exist people would create him.
There is more to this than religion Kam. Religion is a tool. You can use it for good and you can use it for bad.
If these guys didn't have religion they'd be using something else.
Religion can be pretty effective though.
There is more to this than religion Kam. Religion is a tool. You can use it for good and you can use it for bad.
If these guys didn't have religion they'd be using something else.
Religion can be pretty effective though.
Posted by Nightbird on 2015-01-07 21:31:25
Sad day indeed. FOS is something we all hold dear & for it to be assaulted by such evil men is a crime against humanity. This evil must be eradicated by a complete joint effort the world over. My sympathies to the victims & their families.
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-07 21:33:19
Of course religion isn't just a bunch of fundamentalists. ;) But if we want to live together, and since we don't all have the same religion, then we also must accept that the constitution of the country prevails over religions.
@ licker: yeah, this event will probably be used by the FN and make it even stronger. But IMM, the FN isn't strong isn't strong because of the immigration: it's strong because the traditional political parties seems to be powerless, because the economy is disastrous, and because people want to blame someone or a minority for everything that goes bad. But you could kick out of the country everyone who's not here since at least 10 generation, that wouldn't change anything to the economy.
@ licker: yeah, this event will probably be used by the FN and make it even stronger. But IMM, the FN isn't strong isn't strong because of the immigration: it's strong because the traditional political parties seems to be powerless, because the economy is disastrous, and because people want to blame someone or a minority for everything that goes bad. But you could kick out of the country everyone who's not here since at least 10 generation, that wouldn't change anything to the economy.
Posted by bigGuy on 2015-01-07 22:24:30
I would like to share Kam post on Facebook...
Posted by koadah on 2015-01-07 22:26:05
@Kam: I am also an atheist. Though I was raised a Christian. I have no reverence for Mohammed. But if someone published caricatures of Mohammed then I would most likely have a very bad feeling about that person. I would find it very difficult to shake the feeling that that person is probably my enemy too.
I would always be wondering was there really no other way that they could have made their point?
That is nothing to do with religion. That is just too many years of hearing what people say when they don't realise that you can hear them.
How many of these people were raised as fundamentalists? Not many I think. A clever speaker knows which buttons to press to turn people. I would be interested to know how many have a history of mental or emotional issues.
I would always be wondering was there really no other way that they could have made their point?
That is nothing to do with religion. That is just too many years of hearing what people say when they don't realise that you can hear them.
How many of these people were raised as fundamentalists? Not many I think. A clever speaker knows which buttons to press to turn people. I would be interested to know how many have a history of mental or emotional issues.
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-07 23:24:50
2 mins of political philosophy here, sorry about that.
No right is absolute. It can always conflict with another act. And it's the judge's role to determine which one should prevail under the circumstances. Freedom of speech exists in every country... to some extant. In dictatorships, you can say what you want... as long as your not talking about politics, religion, whatever. In democracies, there are also limits to the freedom of speech: calumny for instance, or in some countries, like France, the apology of racism or anti-Semitism. So where is the cursor? It depends on the country.
And then of course, there's the "moral" cursor, and what you decide to say or not, even if the law permits you to.
They chose to publish those caricatures. They used to publish caricatures of anything and anyone, including the other religions, politics, etc. They used to hit where it hurts so we can't bury our heads in sand. Were they right or not? I think they were. You may think differently, and I won't try to convince you: that's your opinion. But I think we may agree that they did not deserve the capital punishment. And we may also agree on the fact that it's the State's job to bring justice, not some bloody fanatics'.
And you may not view it as I do, but this newspaper was an institution. Everybody in the country has loved or hated it. It was a UFO. Even now, 12 hours later, I can't realize it's all gone, that so many talents were killed because... because they had a pen. It's not just some random bombing like we've had in the past. It was an execution.
No right is absolute. It can always conflict with another act. And it's the judge's role to determine which one should prevail under the circumstances. Freedom of speech exists in every country... to some extant. In dictatorships, you can say what you want... as long as your not talking about politics, religion, whatever. In democracies, there are also limits to the freedom of speech: calumny for instance, or in some countries, like France, the apology of racism or anti-Semitism. So where is the cursor? It depends on the country.
And then of course, there's the "moral" cursor, and what you decide to say or not, even if the law permits you to.
They chose to publish those caricatures. They used to publish caricatures of anything and anyone, including the other religions, politics, etc. They used to hit where it hurts so we can't bury our heads in sand. Were they right or not? I think they were. You may think differently, and I won't try to convince you: that's your opinion. But I think we may agree that they did not deserve the capital punishment. And we may also agree on the fact that it's the State's job to bring justice, not some bloody fanatics'.
And you may not view it as I do, but this newspaper was an institution. Everybody in the country has loved or hated it. It was a UFO. Even now, 12 hours later, I can't realize it's all gone, that so many talents were killed because... because they had a pen. It's not just some random bombing like we've had in the past. It was an execution.
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-07 23:27:04
act -> right (I'm tired)
Posted by Dominik on 2015-01-07 23:29:47
If the prophet as the most glorious role model beheaded those who insults Islam or those who are NO followers of Judaism or Christianism and do NOT want to convert to Islam, then it is "our" imperative to criticize this. If those who criticizes this gets killed by Muslims, it is necessary to take the next step.
Posted by fidius on 2015-01-07 23:43:26
You won't usually hear me defending religion per se. You can say it's stupid, fine. But it is simplistic to label "religion" the problem when each religion has its own set of values motivating its adherents' actions. Each religion fights for truth in its own way. A fundamentalist Muslim kills those who slander Mohammed. A fundamentalist Mormon hears your criticism of Joseph Smith and bakes you a pie. The issue isn't that -a category of belief- motivates evil, it is the specific motivation itself. With a little education the differences among religions and the acts they inspire become readily apparent. In fact an honest review of history is all that is ultimately required. Many people seem to think acquiring such education is inherently racist however. I don't understand those people.
It is possible to be dangerously naive about this. An ICM poll in August found that 27% of French citizens aged 18-24 express a positive opinion towards ISIS.
It is possible to be dangerously naive about this. An ICM poll in August found that 27% of French citizens aged 18-24 express a positive opinion towards ISIS.
Posted by Dominik on 2015-01-08 00:23:16
If the Quran encourages its believers to kill other people in order to extend and strengthen the power of Islam, then we have a fundamental problem with this religion.
Religions are always a cause of many problems, some are just more deadly.
If Islam hadn't +1.000.000.000 followers and instead only a few thousands and some of them would behave like some Muslims do now in Europe as terrorists, Islam would get outright banned and all their believers expelled from our countries.
Religions are always a cause of many problems, some are just more deadly.
If Islam hadn't +1.000.000.000 followers and instead only a few thousands and some of them would behave like some Muslims do now in Europe as terrorists, Islam would get outright banned and all their believers expelled from our countries.
Posted by koadah on 2015-01-08 00:28:27
Kam:"But I think we may agree that they did not deserve the capital punishment. And we may also agree on the fact that it's the State's job to bring justice, not some bloody fanatics'."
Of course they didn't deserve to be murdered. Though in some places the "bloody fanatics" effectively are the State and they are murdering people by the hundreds and thousands. Publishing images specifically designed to help recruit more bloody murdering fanatics wasn't the greatest idea IMO.
Rouse the fanatics and rouse the racists. What else could they expect to achieve? World Peace?
Of course they didn't deserve to be murdered. Though in some places the "bloody fanatics" effectively are the State and they are murdering people by the hundreds and thousands. Publishing images specifically designed to help recruit more bloody murdering fanatics wasn't the greatest idea IMO.
Rouse the fanatics and rouse the racists. What else could they expect to achieve? World Peace?
Posted by Kam on 2015-01-08 01:25:31
Update: the three guys (yeah, they were three, not two) have been identified. Their houses are being searched. One of them has the same age as me, and comes from my home town.
Sometimes, you just don't understand.
Sometimes, you just don't understand.
Posted by harvestmouse on 2015-01-08 14:11:40
"If the Quran encourages its believers to kill other people in order to extend and strengthen the power of Islam, then we have a fundamental problem with this religion."
No it does not. This is 'Haraam' (forbidden). Countries with little Muslim influence do not understand this issue at all. These people feel so strongly about the cause they are willing to go to hell (and they truly believe this) to further their cause.
In Islamic countries, religion is everything, it oversees everything, everything revolves around religion. It's almost a 24 hour thing, they are commanded to get up in the early hours and start they're prayers before the sun rises, and so it continues throughout the day. If you live in a Muslim culture you cannot turn your back on it, there is no freedom of speech, there is counter view. From the day they are born, they are conditioned to be Muslims, they pity us. If they like you, they're terrified about your beliefs, which you cannot express to them. They cannot express enough, how important it is for you to change your ways. Maybe 500 years ago, it was similar in the West, but probably not quite like it is there.
They're very excited about the situation in France (not the bombing, the country as a whole). They see this as a foothold in Europe. Generally they don't care about race or colour. It's all about belief. A lot are just normal people, but Islamic State people want the world to be Islamic. Not because they want to rule the world, but because they're generally caring people, saving us from our own stupidity is a goal. Removing corrupting values is another.
Freedom of most kinds are not available in Islamic States, and a lot that are, are due to Western influences and World Law. Even these small things could go out the window if the world became Islamic. As it stands, I think a lot of the world will become Islamic. This wouldn't have major impacts at first, probably not in our lifetime, however the is a scheme behind all of this, slowly overtime these states would fall fully into Islamic beliefs and laws. Not something I'd look forward to, that's for sure.
You cannot trust politicians on these issues, it's long term, affecting our countries long after they're gone. I think you need to put aside political alignments, political correctness and stop dusting things under the carpet. This issue does affect you, and really there's only 2 sides.
If you pick the freedom side you're racist. If you pick world as one side you're naive. Either way, you yourself cannot win.
No it does not. This is 'Haraam' (forbidden). Countries with little Muslim influence do not understand this issue at all. These people feel so strongly about the cause they are willing to go to hell (and they truly believe this) to further their cause.
In Islamic countries, religion is everything, it oversees everything, everything revolves around religion. It's almost a 24 hour thing, they are commanded to get up in the early hours and start they're prayers before the sun rises, and so it continues throughout the day. If you live in a Muslim culture you cannot turn your back on it, there is no freedom of speech, there is counter view. From the day they are born, they are conditioned to be Muslims, they pity us. If they like you, they're terrified about your beliefs, which you cannot express to them. They cannot express enough, how important it is for you to change your ways. Maybe 500 years ago, it was similar in the West, but probably not quite like it is there.
They're very excited about the situation in France (not the bombing, the country as a whole). They see this as a foothold in Europe. Generally they don't care about race or colour. It's all about belief. A lot are just normal people, but Islamic State people want the world to be Islamic. Not because they want to rule the world, but because they're generally caring people, saving us from our own stupidity is a goal. Removing corrupting values is another.
Freedom of most kinds are not available in Islamic States, and a lot that are, are due to Western influences and World Law. Even these small things could go out the window if the world became Islamic. As it stands, I think a lot of the world will become Islamic. This wouldn't have major impacts at first, probably not in our lifetime, however the is a scheme behind all of this, slowly overtime these states would fall fully into Islamic beliefs and laws. Not something I'd look forward to, that's for sure.
You cannot trust politicians on these issues, it's long term, affecting our countries long after they're gone. I think you need to put aside political alignments, political correctness and stop dusting things under the carpet. This issue does affect you, and really there's only 2 sides.
If you pick the freedom side you're racist. If you pick world as one side you're naive. Either way, you yourself cannot win.
Posted by Dominik on 2015-01-08 17:54:13
It's not Haram if the disbelievers have been invited to Islam before. If they do not want to convert, it is the duty to conquer their country so that finally the whole world lives under the banner of Islam and Sharia is installed everywhere.
Islamic world has behaved like this when they were in a situation of power. Once their did not have the power to conquer disbelievers, which started at 1683 AGAIN (their first phase of weakness was in the early days of Mohammed), they switched to other tactics.
Note that taqiyya is a tool used by Muslims to deceive enemies. Currently their taqqiya uses phrases like "We just want to live peacefully." "This is not the true Islam." "Islam means peace" "What Islam are you talking about" etc etc. Imams are allowed to lie if it is of benefit for Islam. This is something which is strongly forbidden in the Bible for example and which Westernes do not recognize, especially in case of preachers.
Islamic world has behaved like this when they were in a situation of power. Once their did not have the power to conquer disbelievers, which started at 1683 AGAIN (their first phase of weakness was in the early days of Mohammed), they switched to other tactics.
Note that taqiyya is a tool used by Muslims to deceive enemies. Currently their taqqiya uses phrases like "We just want to live peacefully." "This is not the true Islam." "Islam means peace" "What Islam are you talking about" etc etc. Imams are allowed to lie if it is of benefit for Islam. This is something which is strongly forbidden in the Bible for example and which Westernes do not recognize, especially in case of preachers.