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2013-03-05 17:09:25
37 votes, rating 3.1
37 votes, rating 3.1
Why the drama about min-max teams?
All these complaints about min-max is so wimpy. Lets put this in perspective. When the box first came out it was LRB4 where a niggle player had a 16% chance to miss a game, aging rolls would ruin top players regularly, a dirty player had a much better chance at injuring, a chaos/skaven team could feature a claw/rsc player that could devastate an opponent, and there were no journeymen to help devastated teams rebuild.
First, the best claw/po/mbers cause on average 1.6 cas a game. That's not scary at all especially when to avg 1.6 they pretty much have to be the only claw/po/mber featured. I would assume that dp's from lrb4 if both teams were using during the game would average more.
Second, claw is useless against AV7 squads. Really want to piss off a CD/Chaos/Chaos Pact team feature all AV7 players and run all around the bloated TV claw.
Now I have played CD's min-max and I have not been that successful with them. In probably 75 games I've lost about as many as I have won. I've played against some really good min-max squads as well. However, I never felt they devastated my team. Besides IMO I am still learning to play with low TV CD's. It requires some delicate team management as well as luck on skill rolls. You need a good ball carrier to win games (either goblin or bull), a good couple bashers to beat down opponents and some other decent CDB's. If you don't roll doubles or get +AG bonuses its not as easy to come up with the right players.
However, I've had more fun playing as elf and woodelf. In fact I have entered 4 black box brawls with my high TV elf/woodelf won two of them and am in the final for another. Its not like it was all that challenging managing to get them to high TV past the min-maxed 1000-1400 TV teams. Its certainly not like LRB4 where I retired teams regularly. I just don't get all the rant and raving. Its simply a strategy to win games or outbash opponents. Much like building a few super elf players with the rest scrubs seems the ideal method to win high TV games.
It was much worse trying to build up teams in LRB4 especially when a stupid aging would ruin an awesome player.
People need to stop being so pissy about how a team is built. Its not like the rules are being bent.
First, the best claw/po/mbers cause on average 1.6 cas a game. That's not scary at all especially when to avg 1.6 they pretty much have to be the only claw/po/mber featured. I would assume that dp's from lrb4 if both teams were using during the game would average more.
Second, claw is useless against AV7 squads. Really want to piss off a CD/Chaos/Chaos Pact team feature all AV7 players and run all around the bloated TV claw.
Now I have played CD's min-max and I have not been that successful with them. In probably 75 games I've lost about as many as I have won. I've played against some really good min-max squads as well. However, I never felt they devastated my team. Besides IMO I am still learning to play with low TV CD's. It requires some delicate team management as well as luck on skill rolls. You need a good ball carrier to win games (either goblin or bull), a good couple bashers to beat down opponents and some other decent CDB's. If you don't roll doubles or get +AG bonuses its not as easy to come up with the right players.
However, I've had more fun playing as elf and woodelf. In fact I have entered 4 black box brawls with my high TV elf/woodelf won two of them and am in the final for another. Its not like it was all that challenging managing to get them to high TV past the min-maxed 1000-1400 TV teams. Its certainly not like LRB4 where I retired teams regularly. I just don't get all the rant and raving. Its simply a strategy to win games or outbash opponents. Much like building a few super elf players with the rest scrubs seems the ideal method to win high TV games.
It was much worse trying to build up teams in LRB4 especially when a stupid aging would ruin an awesome player.
People need to stop being so pissy about how a team is built. Its not like the rules are being bent.
Comments
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2013-03-05 17:14:31
6/6 Truth
Posted by PainState on 2013-03-05 17:17:32
Ok...lets deal with this first.
Niggle in LRB4 was a 1 in 6 chance of missing the game.
Second this idea that AV7 gives you and advantage because that basher now has Claw bloat. Ok fair enough if that is how you want to look at it.
BUT
Lets take our CD team. They have 3 CD with CPOMB. So they have 90TV in Bloated Claw that does not work.
You as the elf team has taken 10 Dodge upgrades. Which is tottally ineffective against his 6 CD tacklers and his one Tackle on a Bull. So in essence you have 200 TV bloat on your side.
Further more since he has PO/MB he does not care about loosing the Claw bacause his odds of bashing up your AV7 elves is the same as bashing up a all Treeman team with CPOMB.
The only way AV7 Blodge does not have Dodge bloat is IF your opponeet has no Tackle on PO/MB players.
Niggle in LRB4 was a 1 in 6 chance of missing the game.
Second this idea that AV7 gives you and advantage because that basher now has Claw bloat. Ok fair enough if that is how you want to look at it.
BUT
Lets take our CD team. They have 3 CD with CPOMB. So they have 90TV in Bloated Claw that does not work.
You as the elf team has taken 10 Dodge upgrades. Which is tottally ineffective against his 6 CD tacklers and his one Tackle on a Bull. So in essence you have 200 TV bloat on your side.
Further more since he has PO/MB he does not care about loosing the Claw bacause his odds of bashing up your AV7 elves is the same as bashing up a all Treeman team with CPOMB.
The only way AV7 Blodge does not have Dodge bloat is IF your opponeet has no Tackle on PO/MB players.
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2013-03-05 17:23:16
not really sure where any of your "facts" come from...and i use that term *very loosely* seeing as how they're all completely inaccurate...
"First, the best claw/po/mbers cause on average 1.6 cas a game. "
i have no clue who the "best" clawbombers are, because it's an entirely subjective statement...but just a random spot check on 3 teams that are ran by good coaches, and are prototypical clawbomb teams...
RandomOracle's Chuck vs Blood Bowl - 4.37 cas/game - 326 games
Calcium's Suicide POMBers - 4.87 cas/game - 154 games
BillBrasky's WMD's in the Box - 4.84 cas/game - 1882 games
while sure, a LRB4 team *MAY* have been able to reach that level of cas/game over that length of time...it was a lot less common due to the fact that DP has mechanics built in to remove players from the pitch...
clawbombs don't...
stop comparing the two, because the circumstances surrounding the two are very different...
claw is useless against av7...you're right...
PO/MB isn't...running higher AV teams is actually beneficial to counteracting the clawbomb mentality, because you're effectively making a team have to pick up 3 skills to turn into a monster, instead of two...
good job on suggesting a completely idiotic, and useless, counter...
lastly...
just because you can't effectively minmax a team, doesn't mean the tactic is useless...your own personal experiences do not relate to the community as a whole...good strawman though...
but you're right...the rules aren't being bent...but conversely, i can say minmaxers need to stop being so pissy about how their team is built...they're contributing to ruining a community driven game...
but then again, i wouldn't expect you to grasp that point...
"First, the best claw/po/mbers cause on average 1.6 cas a game. "
i have no clue who the "best" clawbombers are, because it's an entirely subjective statement...but just a random spot check on 3 teams that are ran by good coaches, and are prototypical clawbomb teams...
RandomOracle's Chuck vs Blood Bowl - 4.37 cas/game - 326 games
Calcium's Suicide POMBers - 4.87 cas/game - 154 games
BillBrasky's WMD's in the Box - 4.84 cas/game - 1882 games
while sure, a LRB4 team *MAY* have been able to reach that level of cas/game over that length of time...it was a lot less common due to the fact that DP has mechanics built in to remove players from the pitch...
clawbombs don't...
stop comparing the two, because the circumstances surrounding the two are very different...
claw is useless against av7...you're right...
PO/MB isn't...running higher AV teams is actually beneficial to counteracting the clawbomb mentality, because you're effectively making a team have to pick up 3 skills to turn into a monster, instead of two...
good job on suggesting a completely idiotic, and useless, counter...
lastly...
just because you can't effectively minmax a team, doesn't mean the tactic is useless...your own personal experiences do not relate to the community as a whole...good strawman though...
but you're right...the rules aren't being bent...but conversely, i can say minmaxers need to stop being so pissy about how their team is built...they're contributing to ruining a community driven game...
but then again, i wouldn't expect you to grasp that point...
Posted by pythrr on 2013-03-05 17:26:18
wimpy?
really? is that it? are we all back in high school?
really? is that it? are we all back in high school?
Posted by koadah on 2013-03-05 17:32:29
Ah memories.
Haven't had a Wimpy in ages. I think there's still one in Enfield. :)
Haven't had a Wimpy in ages. I think there's still one in Enfield. :)
Posted by Chainsaw on 2013-03-05 17:32:57
Not the most factual blog post...
I don't mind clawpomb. However, let's keep it truthful.
I don't mind clawpomb. However, let's keep it truthful.
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-05 17:33:10
shadow>
the best claw/mb/po players on a team only average 1.6 cas a game. I guess I needed to add more details to that statement. I am thinking at most 2 players on a low TV team would have claw/mb/po. Also I doublt those two players could keep an average between both of them 3.0 cas/game.
Also I have found that high TV teams that need claw/po/mb in a lot of cases don't have room for tackle, so elves can run all over them. The only bashers that have room for claw/po/mb/tackle in most cases are CD's who are built with them. However they are also really slow and easy to manuver around.
the best claw/mb/po players on a team only average 1.6 cas a game. I guess I needed to add more details to that statement. I am thinking at most 2 players on a low TV team would have claw/mb/po. Also I doublt those two players could keep an average between both of them 3.0 cas/game.
Also I have found that high TV teams that need claw/po/mb in a lot of cases don't have room for tackle, so elves can run all over them. The only bashers that have room for claw/po/mb/tackle in most cases are CD's who are built with them. However they are also really slow and easy to manuver around.
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2013-03-05 17:34:06
lawman...there is no rationale that you can come up with that makes a clawbomb team have 1.6 cas/game
i can inflict more cas/game with just block/tackle...
stop spewing blatant lies...
i can inflict more cas/game with just block/tackle...
stop spewing blatant lies...
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-05 17:37:03
shadow learn to read.
1.6 per player not per team.
1.6 per player not per team.
Posted by jamesfarrell129 on 2013-03-05 17:37:52
"Why the drama about min-max teams?"
followed by more drama. About min-max teams.
Rated 6 for pure irony.
followed by more drama. About min-max teams.
Rated 6 for pure irony.
Posted by happygrue on 2013-03-05 17:42:19
Move over Qaz, this guy knows how to troll for REALZ. "It's not like the rules are being bent"? Genius!
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-05 17:43:59
Sorry for the mistake about niggle. I forgot the rules on that 1/6 not 1/2.
But overall I don't see much else that is wrong with my statements.
And if people learn to read better 1.6 cas/game is about the best I have found from a single player (NOT TEAM).
But overall I don't see much else that is wrong with my statements.
And if people learn to read better 1.6 cas/game is about the best I have found from a single player (NOT TEAM).
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2013-03-05 17:56:50
"But overall I don't see much else that is wrong with my statements."
and that's why you don't get it...at all...
for starters, the 1.6 metric you're spouting off is a skewed metric, because you only look at the lifetime of a player, and not the point where the threat truly starts to exist...clawbomb players do not become a threat until they hit at least 16spp...
and a lot of players don't do that until they've put a healthy amount of games under their belt...so already, your 1.6 metric is lower than reality...
not to mention, aside from the fact that individual player ratios are a ridiculous metric, having 1 player that is doing 1.6 cas/game only gives you half of the story...that means that team, on average, is guaranteeing at least 1.6 casualties per game...from 1 player...and doesn't take into account the collateral damage from the other 10 players on the pitch...throw in another clawbomb in there, well now you're up to 2.6 cas per game...a third?...3.6....
now you start to see where your stupid little metric is completely irrelevant...
oh wait...it's you...no, you won't see it...you won't ever get it...
and that's why you don't get it...at all...
for starters, the 1.6 metric you're spouting off is a skewed metric, because you only look at the lifetime of a player, and not the point where the threat truly starts to exist...clawbomb players do not become a threat until they hit at least 16spp...
and a lot of players don't do that until they've put a healthy amount of games under their belt...so already, your 1.6 metric is lower than reality...
not to mention, aside from the fact that individual player ratios are a ridiculous metric, having 1 player that is doing 1.6 cas/game only gives you half of the story...that means that team, on average, is guaranteeing at least 1.6 casualties per game...from 1 player...and doesn't take into account the collateral damage from the other 10 players on the pitch...throw in another clawbomb in there, well now you're up to 2.6 cas per game...a third?...3.6....
now you start to see where your stupid little metric is completely irrelevant...
oh wait...it's you...no, you won't see it...you won't ever get it...
Posted by Dan-Da-Man on 2013-03-05 17:59:35
Just make all mutations doubles again for every one simple
Posted by pythrr on 2013-03-05 18:03:31
this blog is a timely reminder that the people at my work are NOT quite as stupid as I think they are
thank you for making me feel better about my colleagues.
thank you for making me feel better about my colleagues.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2013-03-05 18:03:53
People forget how unforgivingly brutal LRB4 was. So brutal that the Box died. As much as people cry about minmax and cpomb it will never as be as brutal as those days.
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-05 18:06:17
shadow>
the 1.6 metric is viewed from the absolute top CDB's from the box from most SPP's downward. Most of them actually average around 1.4 if that. The lowest SPP player I looked at had 245 SPP's. I understand that they may have been clawless part of their careers. But its reasonable to assume 1.6 is a good ballpark average for top threats.
Until you prove me wrong which you have not. I think you just like to complain shadow.
the 1.6 metric is viewed from the absolute top CDB's from the box from most SPP's downward. Most of them actually average around 1.4 if that. The lowest SPP player I looked at had 245 SPP's. I understand that they may have been clawless part of their careers. But its reasonable to assume 1.6 is a good ballpark average for top threats.
Until you prove me wrong which you have not. I think you just like to complain shadow.
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-05 18:10:05
JimmyFantastic.
You understand the reason of this post. Thank You.
You understand the reason of this post. Thank You.
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2013-03-05 18:16:22
LOL
"your facts don't mesh with the false dialogue i am trying to build!!!"
lawman...just because *YOU* are a terrible coach, doesn't mean the system is not broken...
"your facts don't mesh with the false dialogue i am trying to build!!!"
lawman...just because *YOU* are a terrible coach, doesn't mean the system is not broken...
Posted by PainState on 2013-03-05 18:18:01
????
Jimmy figured out the post and in two sentences accomplished what it took over 5 paragraphs for you to write Lawman?
I reread the entire Blog...Basically the first 4 paragraphs are a brain fart.
The 6 paragraph, which is a sentence, is just thrown out into the win like chaff.
So the 5th and 7th paragraph IS the discussion you wanted to have it seems.
Jimmy figured out the post and in two sentences accomplished what it took over 5 paragraphs for you to write Lawman?
I reread the entire Blog...Basically the first 4 paragraphs are a brain fart.
The 6 paragraph, which is a sentence, is just thrown out into the win like chaff.
So the 5th and 7th paragraph IS the discussion you wanted to have it seems.
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-05 18:25:54
Basically PainState people need to realize the rules for LRB5 are pretty soft.
Overall claw/mb/po is not as scary as people make it out to be and it certainly does not deter people away from the box overall. Although some wimps may not want to play.
I just get sick of the complaints.
Overall claw/mb/po is not as scary as people make it out to be and it certainly does not deter people away from the box overall. Although some wimps may not want to play.
I just get sick of the complaints.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-03-05 18:33:42
damn tehm wimps!
Posted by strikereternal on 2013-03-05 18:42:03
As others have pointed out avg CAS of an individual player is a very disingenuous way of proving your point here as it means very little.
Your minmax CDs going .500 also proves nothing - you are either doing it wrong or just not coaching well. Or both.
That being said the top minmax CD teams I've seen lately like PeteW's Cheesedorfs and Jimmy's Mortal Kombat dorfs are both run by skilled coaches. I don't think noobs can have great success with this type of build. I also agree it's blown out of proportion. But I don't think your blog does a good job of proving that point.
Just my $0.02.
Your minmax CDs going .500 also proves nothing - you are either doing it wrong or just not coaching well. Or both.
That being said the top minmax CD teams I've seen lately like PeteW's Cheesedorfs and Jimmy's Mortal Kombat dorfs are both run by skilled coaches. I don't think noobs can have great success with this type of build. I also agree it's blown out of proportion. But I don't think your blog does a good job of proving that point.
Just my $0.02.
Posted by JigerJones on 2013-03-05 18:47:46
I can understand why some people hate the box, but I don't see why people can't just leave it alone. Rated 6, because although the delivery wasn't great, the message got there
Posted by vaclav on 2013-03-05 19:31:36
I played in last days of lrb4 box and it was awful. I dont minmax, dont have clapomb spam teams and i dont mind playing against them. In lrb4 u couldnt have a gobo team in last 8, and there was so much less competetive races. Main thing was dp and most important strategy was how to foul oponnents best player. Dp was alpha and omega of strategy in lrb4. If u didnt have dp it was like u walked naked on pitch, and if your opo rolled get the ref u could just said gg in turn 1. Maybe i am writing yibrish about this, but the fact is fumbbl was dying with lrb4.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-03-05 19:45:00
NO NO NO
DP WAS not.
there was this thing called THE EYE, and unless one lucked out and GTR, or your opponent was an idiot, you got sent off 5/6 times.
DP WAS not.
there was this thing called THE EYE, and unless one lucked out and GTR, or your opponent was an idiot, you got sent off 5/6 times.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2013-03-05 20:00:42
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=632143
Posted by oryx on 2013-03-05 21:20:40
Clawpomb is (in many games) not as heinous as dp was (in many games).
Neither one of them is ideal, but eh. It's good.
Neither one of them is ideal, but eh. It's good.
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2013-03-05 21:53:04
"Clawpomb is (in many games) not as heinous as dp was (in many games). "
LOL
some of you people are either blatantly lying, or are seriously deluding yourself...
LOL
some of you people are either blatantly lying, or are seriously deluding yourself...
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-05 22:06:29
shadow46x2>
I don't get why you even comment. You've played two LRB5 games in the last year. You've only played 90 games in the box total.
How many LRB5 games have you even played?
Either way I should just ignore your comments as they are junk and you clearly do not know how to read a post unless its spelled out for you.
I don't get why you even comment. You've played two LRB5 games in the last year. You've only played 90 games in the box total.
How many LRB5 games have you even played?
Either way I should just ignore your comments as they are junk and you clearly do not know how to read a post unless its spelled out for you.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-03-05 22:38:06
lawman
shadow is, as it happens, right on this issue
shadow is, as it happens, right on this issue
Posted by shadow46x2 on 2013-03-05 22:42:04
lawman...
i've been on this site for just shy of a decade....10 years...and that's not even including my TT experience...
i think i have a pretty solid understanding of the mechanics of the game...
just because i choose not to be a part of a crappy rulesystem does not mean i am ignorant of how it works...
i've been on this site for just shy of a decade....10 years...and that's not even including my TT experience...
i think i have a pretty solid understanding of the mechanics of the game...
just because i choose not to be a part of a crappy rulesystem does not mean i am ignorant of how it works...
Posted by Skolopender on 2013-03-05 23:56:52
You killed Froik... BOO!
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-06 00:11:12
LMAO Skolopender. I still feel bad about that one :)
Posted by Gromrilram on 2013-03-06 00:32:11
the fact aside that you dont really want to talk about min/maxed teams - lets go for your seeming question nonetheless:
min/maxing means, by definition, yu have a more efficient team than your opponent at same TV rating.
whats the drama about it? that people who minmax, again, thats the definition of it, dont want their team to become as good as they can, they want to just have a team that is better than the opponents theyll face.
That is the essence of what was the main argument (and to huge extend still IS) against ranked: pickers only play teams that are weakers than their own.
the way to go there seems to get 1-2 clawpombers and be efficient. but the problem is not the way - its the intention.
min/maxing means, by definition, yu have a more efficient team than your opponent at same TV rating.
whats the drama about it? that people who minmax, again, thats the definition of it, dont want their team to become as good as they can, they want to just have a team that is better than the opponents theyll face.
That is the essence of what was the main argument (and to huge extend still IS) against ranked: pickers only play teams that are weakers than their own.
the way to go there seems to get 1-2 clawpombers and be efficient. but the problem is not the way - its the intention.
Posted by JimmyFantastic on 2013-03-06 02:49:40
My team currently only has one claw out of 18 rolls for CDBs, a 23/2/1 record and 3.54 cas a game. Best thing about the team is the star hobgoblin.
Posted by lawman on 2013-03-06 03:44:03
BTW I was reviewing all the min-max CD teams out there:
I have beat Minmax Guru twice with my elves. However as a min-max squad to me they look very tough. None of his CDB's have the claw/mb/po trifecta currently. Krusti is a top 10 coach and they have 55/16/15 record and causes 3.5 cas/game.
Trota has the best example of what a min-max CD team looks like. Pizze has 3 Claw Superstars with a +AG goblin 2 DP's and no bulls. He causes 4.2 cas a game with a 33/5/16 record. All 3 of his CDB's are uninjured and original to the team with 54 total games. He's ranked 12 as a CD coach.
Smallman (not suprisingly) has an example as well. Unlike Trota above he is only blessed with one superstar CDB although he causes 1.33 cas/game. He has a stout 65/21/29 record. But he does carry two bulls which puts him a bit higher TV. He causes 3.68 cas/game.
Pythrr's example is led by two legendary CDB's. MB/Claw (w.o. PO) built more to live really long as he causes only .66 cas/game. His other legend causes less than 1. He has a 98/37/49 and has played the most games of any examples here. He causes 3.75 cas/game.
SergeiBautin's Chaotic Alignment has two superstar CDB's, a 27/6/8 record, and averages 4.15 cas/game. They are just a bit less scary then Trotta's team.
Only Trotta's and SergeiBautin's team to me is scary. This is as scary as LRB5 gets. WOW. JimmyFantastic>BTW I looked at your team but they haven't played enough games yet to be considered. I removed a lot of teams from consideration if they had yet to play a decent amount of games.
People complain about MB/Claw/PO too much.
After searching the top 300 coaches in the box coaching CD's I don't see anymore scary CD teams. My record vs these teams listed are 2-0-1.
I have beat Minmax Guru twice with my elves. However as a min-max squad to me they look very tough. None of his CDB's have the claw/mb/po trifecta currently. Krusti is a top 10 coach and they have 55/16/15 record and causes 3.5 cas/game.
Trota has the best example of what a min-max CD team looks like. Pizze has 3 Claw Superstars with a +AG goblin 2 DP's and no bulls. He causes 4.2 cas a game with a 33/5/16 record. All 3 of his CDB's are uninjured and original to the team with 54 total games. He's ranked 12 as a CD coach.
Smallman (not suprisingly) has an example as well. Unlike Trota above he is only blessed with one superstar CDB although he causes 1.33 cas/game. He has a stout 65/21/29 record. But he does carry two bulls which puts him a bit higher TV. He causes 3.68 cas/game.
Pythrr's example is led by two legendary CDB's. MB/Claw (w.o. PO) built more to live really long as he causes only .66 cas/game. His other legend causes less than 1. He has a 98/37/49 and has played the most games of any examples here. He causes 3.75 cas/game.
SergeiBautin's Chaotic Alignment has two superstar CDB's, a 27/6/8 record, and averages 4.15 cas/game. They are just a bit less scary then Trotta's team.
Only Trotta's and SergeiBautin's team to me is scary. This is as scary as LRB5 gets. WOW. JimmyFantastic>BTW I looked at your team but they haven't played enough games yet to be considered. I removed a lot of teams from consideration if they had yet to play a decent amount of games.
People complain about MB/Claw/PO too much.
After searching the top 300 coaches in the box coaching CD's I don't see anymore scary CD teams. My record vs these teams listed are 2-0-1.
Posted by Meltyman on 2013-03-06 14:04:47
Justify that combination to yourself as much as you like.
Win or Lose with it, it still is awful to play against.
And for some people the game is more about enjoying the game with the opponent, rather than just wanking all over your opponents with ridiculous skill combinations.
Win or Lose with it, it still is awful to play against.
And for some people the game is more about enjoying the game with the opponent, rather than just wanking all over your opponents with ridiculous skill combinations.
Posted by pythrr on 2013-03-06 18:23:45
Y U mention LAMMERS!? Where our IMAGE rights? This copyist non-patent CHINA lands of counterfeit? What>? You hear from our legal lawyaers mens!!!
Posted by the_Sage on 2013-05-30 17:57:32
Pah I can do 1.6 without claw.