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2009-07-25 04:40:24
34 votes, rating 3.7
34 votes, rating 3.7
Everybody gets one. Mine's Kickoffs.
Alright. So it's come to my attention that nearly all of the less stable Blood Bowl players have one big issue with Fumbbl, that they absolutely hate. For some it's the RNG (ridiculous), for others it's fouling, Khemri, etc. It seems that none of these people actually have legitimate arguments, but simply don't realize that Blood Bowl is a fantastically-designed game that simply has too many quirks and facets to be ideal for every player.
And yes, I too, realize that I am one of these easily-agitated players.
For me, it's the kickoff table.
Now, obviously Blood Bowl is a game of chance and skill both, and many times a game will come down to a crucial dice roll. When you come out on the wrong side of that dice roll, it's easy to feel cheated. But it seems like nearly all of these situations could have been avoided by better playing/planning. Rolled and re-rolled arrows and skulls on his ball carrier? That's too bad. But what if you had taken strip ball on that blitzer instead of mighty blow? Snake eyes to gfi into the end zone? Bummer. But better positioning of your players could have avoided it.
But to me, it seems the kickoff table is a savage beast, tethered not to any human controls, yielding only to its dark master, the dice. I hate to see a game swung by something neither player controlled. I, for the sake of my own sanity, am going to list the kickoff results used by the Java client, and ponder what's wrong with them. Join me?
2-Injury Time. Fine. Interesting twist to the game that neither player likely expects.
3-Get the Ref. Terrible. Probably the most game-influencing result. Roll this on the opening kick, and it's a simple task to reduce the opponent's numbers to a team that simply cannot win the game. Affected by fan factor, so not totally out of the player's control, but still simply unbalanced.
4-Perfect Defense. Awful. Not in any way under either coach's control. What makes it worse is that it seems to benefit bashier/sturdier teams and truly devastate any kind of fast-scoring offense, like elves or skaven.
5 & 9- Extra re-rolls. Again, somewhat under the control of coaches, provided they want to inflate their team rating with oft-useless staff. It seems benign enough. Generally I'm not mad if my opponent snags a free re-roll, and I'm just glad nobody hit me with a rock. But in reality it's equivalent to a significant boost in tr. If you're playing up 7 tr, and your opponent gets an extra re-roll, you're essentially playing at a tr difference that would give you a handicap, or prevent you from accepting the match in the first place.
6-Bad Kick. Annoying to roll, nice to have rolled against you. Never game-breaking. Fine.
7-Changing Weather. Perfect, wouldn't change it.
8-Quick Snap. Reasonable. Gives the offense a slight edge. Maybe lets a player going deep go deeper, or gives them a free pick-up roll. Nothing dramatic.
10-Blitz. Completely unbalanced. Skewed towards faster teams, ie, the ones most adversely affected by perfect defense.
11-Throw a Rock. Funny. Can be significant if a player is hurt worse than stunned, or was in a critical position.
12-Field Invasion. Ugh. Depending on the number of players affected, can absolutely cement the result of a drive in a touchdown for the team that still has standing players. Under some control from fan factor.
Yikes, what an overly-long post. If you're still with me, perhaps you'd like to partake in conclusions with me? Let's do.
Well, I see now that there are only really a few results that are truly unbalanced. It's perhaps not as big of a deal as I thought, but I still feel that no game should be affected by the kickoff table so dramatically that you could reasonably claim it cost you the win. I'd love to see Get The Ref, Blitz, Perfect Defense, and Field Invasion completely removed. The extra re-roll results I can live with, but I'm not partial towards them. In any case, I do realize that one can tend to sound like a jabbering fool with a post like this- Blood Bowl is a game we all love, and its 'imperfections' are often what makes it the most interesting. I hope I haven't made too big an ass of myself here. If I have, feel free to let me have it.
Thanks for reading,
~pubstar
And yes, I too, realize that I am one of these easily-agitated players.
For me, it's the kickoff table.
Now, obviously Blood Bowl is a game of chance and skill both, and many times a game will come down to a crucial dice roll. When you come out on the wrong side of that dice roll, it's easy to feel cheated. But it seems like nearly all of these situations could have been avoided by better playing/planning. Rolled and re-rolled arrows and skulls on his ball carrier? That's too bad. But what if you had taken strip ball on that blitzer instead of mighty blow? Snake eyes to gfi into the end zone? Bummer. But better positioning of your players could have avoided it.
But to me, it seems the kickoff table is a savage beast, tethered not to any human controls, yielding only to its dark master, the dice. I hate to see a game swung by something neither player controlled. I, for the sake of my own sanity, am going to list the kickoff results used by the Java client, and ponder what's wrong with them. Join me?
2-Injury Time. Fine. Interesting twist to the game that neither player likely expects.
3-Get the Ref. Terrible. Probably the most game-influencing result. Roll this on the opening kick, and it's a simple task to reduce the opponent's numbers to a team that simply cannot win the game. Affected by fan factor, so not totally out of the player's control, but still simply unbalanced.
4-Perfect Defense. Awful. Not in any way under either coach's control. What makes it worse is that it seems to benefit bashier/sturdier teams and truly devastate any kind of fast-scoring offense, like elves or skaven.
5 & 9- Extra re-rolls. Again, somewhat under the control of coaches, provided they want to inflate their team rating with oft-useless staff. It seems benign enough. Generally I'm not mad if my opponent snags a free re-roll, and I'm just glad nobody hit me with a rock. But in reality it's equivalent to a significant boost in tr. If you're playing up 7 tr, and your opponent gets an extra re-roll, you're essentially playing at a tr difference that would give you a handicap, or prevent you from accepting the match in the first place.
6-Bad Kick. Annoying to roll, nice to have rolled against you. Never game-breaking. Fine.
7-Changing Weather. Perfect, wouldn't change it.
8-Quick Snap. Reasonable. Gives the offense a slight edge. Maybe lets a player going deep go deeper, or gives them a free pick-up roll. Nothing dramatic.
10-Blitz. Completely unbalanced. Skewed towards faster teams, ie, the ones most adversely affected by perfect defense.
11-Throw a Rock. Funny. Can be significant if a player is hurt worse than stunned, or was in a critical position.
12-Field Invasion. Ugh. Depending on the number of players affected, can absolutely cement the result of a drive in a touchdown for the team that still has standing players. Under some control from fan factor.
Yikes, what an overly-long post. If you're still with me, perhaps you'd like to partake in conclusions with me? Let's do.
Well, I see now that there are only really a few results that are truly unbalanced. It's perhaps not as big of a deal as I thought, but I still feel that no game should be affected by the kickoff table so dramatically that you could reasonably claim it cost you the win. I'd love to see Get The Ref, Blitz, Perfect Defense, and Field Invasion completely removed. The extra re-roll results I can live with, but I'm not partial towards them. In any case, I do realize that one can tend to sound like a jabbering fool with a post like this- Blood Bowl is a game we all love, and its 'imperfections' are often what makes it the most interesting. I hope I haven't made too big an ass of myself here. If I have, feel free to let me have it.
Thanks for reading,
~pubstar
Comments
Posted by WindexChugger on 2009-07-25 06:23:57
it's just one of the things that makes blood bowl...blood bowl. If nuffle is with you...really with you, your 100TR halflings can beat Competitive Eaters.
And really, only GTR is so severely game changing that it should be changed (which it is in LRB5.)
Perfect defense...is very useful, but for the most part you're either A. a basher and take the PD, or B. an agility team who can just dodge away. It's unpleasant, and can sometimes win a drive, but it's not a game thrower.
Blitz...again useful. This time for speedier teams, as you said. This kickoff result leans more towards the game changing, imo. If a team of woodies rolls blitz, they can easily get a catcher under the ball and several players around him, maybe even a full cage. If this happens...it's broken, imo. If the other team can only get one person under the ball, but that's it...well, that's fine. Should be able to stop them.
Pitch Invasion. This, rock, GTR, and income are the reasons to have high FF. I think this is a fair kick-off result. If you don't spend the effort to get (or just don't care about) FF, then this could be awful. I've played a game in which pitch invasion was rolled twice, and I had at least double my opponents FF. In one of those kick offs, all but one of his players were knocked down. My opponent took the risk; he decided that his TR/TS was better spent on players/skills than on FF. Often, he gets a slight advantage over me because of it, but occasionally the kickoff table decides that I should get paid for my FF. This, rock, and GTR are all things to consider when deciding if high FF is what you want. You just have to weigh the gains/loss of high FF. Having these kick-off results increases team build possibilities.
And really, only GTR is so severely game changing that it should be changed (which it is in LRB5.)
Perfect defense...is very useful, but for the most part you're either A. a basher and take the PD, or B. an agility team who can just dodge away. It's unpleasant, and can sometimes win a drive, but it's not a game thrower.
Blitz...again useful. This time for speedier teams, as you said. This kickoff result leans more towards the game changing, imo. If a team of woodies rolls blitz, they can easily get a catcher under the ball and several players around him, maybe even a full cage. If this happens...it's broken, imo. If the other team can only get one person under the ball, but that's it...well, that's fine. Should be able to stop them.
Pitch Invasion. This, rock, GTR, and income are the reasons to have high FF. I think this is a fair kick-off result. If you don't spend the effort to get (or just don't care about) FF, then this could be awful. I've played a game in which pitch invasion was rolled twice, and I had at least double my opponents FF. In one of those kick offs, all but one of his players were knocked down. My opponent took the risk; he decided that his TR/TS was better spent on players/skills than on FF. Often, he gets a slight advantage over me because of it, but occasionally the kickoff table decides that I should get paid for my FF. This, rock, and GTR are all things to consider when deciding if high FF is what you want. You just have to weigh the gains/loss of high FF. Having these kick-off results increases team build possibilities.
Posted by Ganabul on 2009-07-25 07:46:20
Windex, I wish FF was that controllable, especially for newer coaches.
Yes, I know there are ways to improve it - but specifically working on it is hard to do when you're still learning the game. The easiest, for example, is to win consistently. By definition, that's not that easy for newbs! As a result, new, less skilled players have to endure what, as pubstar points out, are decisive results which often leave no chance for a response. Getting shut out for a whole drive (Field Invasion) or, worse, losing half your team by half time to an early get the ref, is simply not fun. Overall and in the long term, Windex, you may be right - they aren't game breaking, just part of the ebb and flow of chance that make the game. But there are times when it doesn't feel like that, even for the most reasonable of newbies.
As for your general points, pubstar, I agree pretty much, and you're far from an ass; blitz has won me one game and cost me one (as in late 2nd half blitz-catch-scores); PD makes me wince. Some of my teams have really low FF, and I've lost games to the Ref and Field Invasion. Here's to a few more cas & a higher fan factor ;)
Yes, I know there are ways to improve it - but specifically working on it is hard to do when you're still learning the game. The easiest, for example, is to win consistently. By definition, that's not that easy for newbs! As a result, new, less skilled players have to endure what, as pubstar points out, are decisive results which often leave no chance for a response. Getting shut out for a whole drive (Field Invasion) or, worse, losing half your team by half time to an early get the ref, is simply not fun. Overall and in the long term, Windex, you may be right - they aren't game breaking, just part of the ebb and flow of chance that make the game. But there are times when it doesn't feel like that, even for the most reasonable of newbies.
As for your general points, pubstar, I agree pretty much, and you're far from an ass; blitz has won me one game and cost me one (as in late 2nd half blitz-catch-scores); PD makes me wince. Some of my teams have really low FF, and I've lost games to the Ref and Field Invasion. Here's to a few more cas & a higher fan factor ;)
Posted by koga49 on 2009-07-25 10:23:43
voted 1 - love the kick off table in bb adds to the game an element of suprise and creates a different challange if there was no kick off suprise think the game would be duller for it.
couple of games ago opponent got blitz and i managed to score after he rushed forward giving me a chance, it was a very satisfying moment.
couple of games ago opponent got blitz and i managed to score after he rushed forward giving me a chance, it was a very satisfying moment.
Posted by Gritter on 2009-07-25 10:24:29
"Changing weather- perfect" wtf? when the weather turns to heat, thats what annoys me the most in the game. If one or both teams are short handed it makes the result of the match a complete lottery.
Posted by Purplegoo on 2009-07-25 22:16:23
I think that's an excellent blog, sir.
Whilst the kickoff table is fun, I totally agree (although not with some of your specifics there – we could quibble over what’s worst, etc, GTR gets too bad a stick, for instance) that it's too influential and at times a but silly! Too many people focus on GTR and forget some of the other poor game mechanics (not fluff, game mechanics) on the KO table. I think it’s one of BB's bigger flaws, myself, and could do with a really radical rethink.
Sadly, this is as good as you’ll have it. When we get to LRB5+; life takes a turn for the worse. Riot and High Kick are just dumb. Although, I'm not swung either way on the fame thing, I've yet to play deep enough into the league I'm playing in to decide.
Anyway; good blog pointing out a mechanic that's flawed and people miss all too often.
Whilst the kickoff table is fun, I totally agree (although not with some of your specifics there – we could quibble over what’s worst, etc, GTR gets too bad a stick, for instance) that it's too influential and at times a but silly! Too many people focus on GTR and forget some of the other poor game mechanics (not fluff, game mechanics) on the KO table. I think it’s one of BB's bigger flaws, myself, and could do with a really radical rethink.
Sadly, this is as good as you’ll have it. When we get to LRB5+; life takes a turn for the worse. Riot and High Kick are just dumb. Although, I'm not swung either way on the fame thing, I've yet to play deep enough into the league I'm playing in to decide.
Anyway; good blog pointing out a mechanic that's flawed and people miss all too often.