FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 18:43

I dislike the "blood bowl should be balanced" argument, because in terms of oldschool tabletop games, both strategy and D&D (amalgamations of which being where warhammer and therefore bloodbowl sort of derive from), you always have a sort of progress quest breakdown of classes/races/groups where some are decidedly weaker than others.

That isn't because the games are "unbalanced", it's because there isn't a real way to create a difficulty slider without making inherently weaker starting positions. Balance in game design does not mean fair - it means that actions, scenarios and positions are viable.

Just think of flings and goblins as booting up DooM in ultra-violence difficulty.

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AlexHolker

Joined: Dec 02, 2015

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 21:38

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

I dislike the "blood bowl should be balanced" argument, because in terms of oldschool tabletop games, both strategy and D&D (amalgamations of which being where warhammer and therefore bloodbowl sort of derive from), you always have a sort of progress quest breakdown of classes/races/groups where some are decidedly weaker than others.

That isn't because the games are "unbalanced", it's because there isn't a real way to create a difficulty slider without making inherently weaker starting positions.

Wrong. That is a failure of these systems, because it creates traps for newbie players that they cannot recognise until its too late. If you're introducing someone to your gaming group and they want to play a Fighter in D&D or a team full of Big Guys in Blood Bowl, that is not a secret admission that they want to spend the next ten weeks having their face ground into the turf, and it should not be treated as such. Like I said, any moron can handicap themselves if they want just by giving their opponent a 100k handicap, they don't need Jervis Johnson violating the basic principle of a points system to tell you that certain teams come pre-handicapped.

Kam

Joined: Nov 06, 2012

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 21:46

The rulebook makes it pretty clear Flings and Gobbos suck, even to new players who don't understand what "no G access ST2 Stunty" means.

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GLN 17 is out!

ArrestedDevelopment

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 21:58

AlexHolker wrote:

Wrong. That is a failure of these systems, because it creates traps for newbie players that they cannot recognise until its too late. If you're introducing someone to your gaming group and they want to play a Fighter in D&D or a team full of Big Guys in Blood Bowl, that is not a secret admission that they want to spend the next ten weeks having their face ground into the turf, and it should not be treated as such. Like I said, any moron can handicap themselves if they want just by giving their opponent a 100k handicap, they don't need Jervis Johnson violating the basic principle of a points system to tell you that certain teams come pre-handicapped.

Nothing I stated was incorrect, you just happen to disagree with the methodology, so please do not push your opinion as objective fact with short, snappy statements like "wrong".

[edit] That is to say - you talk about the existence of a balanced game at the core with additional handicaps etc to make things difficult - the rulebook has made it clear from the beginning that playing a stunty race is a handicap in and of itself.

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Burnalot

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 22:15

Garion wrote:

Flings are fine, check my pirates out below.

Would you be able to do something similar vs random opponents, let's say in blackbox or a proper league?

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If Jah is by my side, how can I be afraid?

CCSenor

Joined: Aug 15, 2009

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 22:37

For me Alex you miss a basic point here and that is the fluff/backstory of BB.

Flings are a plucky bunch of fellows who lose almost all the time because physically they are just not cut out for BB. But due to their happy go lucky nature they keep turning up and playing hoping to survive for the after match feast provided by the club owner and occasionally, inspired by the masterchef on the sidelines and a benevolent nuffle, they sneak a win or two.

The Lowdown rats and the Greenfield Grasshuggers were never meant to be on a level with the Gouged Eye or the Chaos All Stars.

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Dec 03, 2015 - 13:03

AlexHolker wrote:

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

I dislike the "blood bowl should be balanced" argument, because in terms of oldschool tabletop games, both strategy and D&D (amalgamations of which being where warhammer and therefore bloodbowl sort of derive from), you always have a sort of progress quest breakdown of classes/races/groups where some are decidedly weaker than others.

That isn't because the games are "unbalanced", it's because there isn't a real way to create a difficulty slider without making inherently weaker starting positions.

Wrong. That is a failure of these systems, because it creates traps for newbie players that they cannot recognise until its too late. If you're introducing someone to your gaming group and they want to play a Fighter in D&D or a team full of Big Guys in Blood Bowl, that is not a secret admission that they want to spend the next ten weeks having their face ground into the turf, and it should not be treated as such. Like I said, any moron can handicap themselves if they want just by giving their opponent a 100k handicap, they don't need Jervis Johnson violating the basic principle of a points system to tell you that certain teams come pre-handicapped.

You're wrong here Alex the rulebook specifically states some teams are harder to coach than others, and it goes so far as to list some of the easier ones and some of the harder ones.

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Kam

Joined: Nov 06, 2012

Posted: Dec 03, 2015 - 13:18

CCSenor wrote:

The Lowdown rats and the Greenfield Grasshuggers were never meant to be on a level with the Gouged Eye or the Chaos All Stars.

There's even a "Did you know" explaining the roster are limited to 16 players due to a fling game where hundreds of little fellows died on the pitch. Wink

Or that description of the fling roster stating that it takes a whole team to take an opponent down and that the only thing they can do is put half a dozen of flings in the end zone, throw the ball, and pray that one of them somehow manages to catch it on a bounce.

That's pretty clear, if you ask me. Very Happy

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GLN 17 is out!

LemonheadWallenstein

Joined: Dec 20, 2012

Posted: Dec 03, 2015 - 13:37

What is not clear is why someone who create an account and create such a topic straight away just to antagonize everyone.
i think it's a spy preparing us for the reboot of BB where all the teams are Tier 1 Very Happy

Badoek