FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Faulcon

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 09:03

Nelphine wrote:

Interesting. That actually makes expensive mistakes meaningful too - without that rule, there were many teams that easily gathered million of gold which would have supported having multiple legends without difficulty.

However, there would need to be a 'season' for perpetual leagues, in order to have a timeframe to pay your wannabe retirees.

In addition, does it even work? I could easily see it instead simply encouraging people to play with loners, and save up money for the end of the season, just to keep their 3-4 legends around.

Then you'd end up with extreme minmaxing instead. You don't even bother trying to hire people past a certain point, you just run journeymen and legends. Spend money only when a legend actually dies/retires, and only to simply get more positional until one of them legends. Wood elves already successfully play like this - encouraging that behaviour seems even worse.

When they want to retire, which is guaranteed by the end of season 7 I think (and pretty likely by the end of 3 or 4 seasons), they cost 20k per season extra to rehire (including prior seasons they didn't want to retire). So they're gone sooner or later no matter what you do and if you're paying out 100k+ extra for a player that's a lot to be giving up that another team has for rerolls or more skilled players. Sure you'd then get that 100k+ in inducements but skilled players are still better. And yes, expensive mistakes is part of this, you can't save up money with expensive mistakes in play.

Faulcon

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 09:05

ph0enyx13 wrote:

The way ranked and box are right now, I feel like you would either need a third division for season teams, or to put seasons into box, but allow all box teams that want to to transfer to ranked or something.

Like I think there are a lot of coaches that like their big teams and we already have issues with ranked and box splitting the user base enough already

I was just making the point that when someone claims a roster needs a nerf they should take into account the actual rules and not the 'house rules' format that fumbbl is using.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 14:00

tussock wrote:

fumbbl is currently running a house-rule version of the game where players do not cost more for wanting to retire, but also where there is no CPOMB to trim the old AV 9 players now and then.

I remember that Christer explained PO in BB2016 is an optional rule which must be enabled by the League Commissioner to be used, not a default rule.
Anyway, even with Claw+MB only, AV 9 players are not so immune to injuries.
Play Lizardmen at high TV in the Box and you will find it out.

Java

Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 14:37

tussock wrote:

fumbbl is currently running a house-rule version of the game ... where DP is not +2 on both and does not stack with MB on fouls.

Huh? When did that happen?

garyt1

Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 17:59

MattDakka wrote:

Anyway, even with Claw+MB only, AV 9 players are not so immune to injuries.
Play Lizardmen at high TV in the Box and you will find it out.

Yeah at high Tv there is either clawmb opponents or agile leaping sackers tormenting skinks.

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Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 18:35

Java wrote:

tussock wrote:

fumbbl is currently running a house-rule version of the game ... where DP is not +2 on both and does not stack with MB on fouls.

Huh? When did that happen?

He is referring to older editions with each section of his post. E.g. one section mentioned ageing rolls referring to lrb4. DP part is in reference to lrb1.3 i think, though it didn't quite work like that, though not far off.

his point was there is not the right level of attrition currently in the main division because "seasons" are meant to be cap teams.

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ph0enyx13

Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 18:35

Garion wrote:

Balle2000 wrote:

ph0enyx13 wrote:

In NAF tournaments, Lizardmen have the 3rd highest win rate. The new MVP rules more than make up for the seasons/wants to retire rules.

The rules aren't really made for the resurrection format though.

Not sure that's true. There have been a number of people involved in designing the rules since the lrbs started and even to this day that are heavily involved in the resurrection tourney scene.

I would agree if you said it's not the primary design goal but I am sure it is a secondary consideration when making roster changes. Players like hefty or ooligan for example are perfect for that scene but add little to nothing in scheduled leagues for example.

What makes hefties and ooligans good for res but bad outside of res?

ph0enyx13

Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 18:43

Faulcon wrote:

Nelphine wrote:

Interesting. That actually makes expensive mistakes meaningful too - without that rule, there were many teams that easily gathered million of gold which would have supported having multiple legends without difficulty.

However, there would need to be a 'season' for perpetual leagues, in order to have a timeframe to pay your wannabe retirees.

In addition, does it even work? I could easily see it instead simply encouraging people to play with loners, and save up money for the end of the season, just to keep their 3-4 legends around.

Then you'd end up with extreme minmaxing instead. You don't even bother trying to hire people past a certain point, you just run journeymen and legends. Spend money only when a legend actually dies/retires, and only to simply get more positional until one of them legends. Wood elves already successfully play like this - encouraging that behaviour seems even worse.

When they want to retire, which is guaranteed by the end of season 7 I think (and pretty likely by the end of 3 or 4 seasons), they cost 20k per season extra to rehire (including prior seasons they didn't want to retire). So they're gone sooner or later no matter what you do and if you're paying out 100k+ extra for a player that's a lot to be giving up that another team has for rerolls or more skilled players. Sure you'd then get that 100k+ in inducements but skilled players are still better. And yes, expensive mistakes is part of this, you can't save up money with expensive mistakes in play.

Wants to retire doesn't affect TV

If you wish to re-hire a player who wants to retire, they will require an extra incentive to stay on (usually a sneaky envelope full of gold!). For each season the player has completed, it costs an extra 20,000 gold pieces to re-hire them. This is a one-off extra payment that does not affect the Cost column of your team roster.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 18:48

no, but wants to retire affects how much tv you can rebuy; if you can't rebuy the full team, including wants to retire, then in order to keep those stars, you have to give up skills on other players in order to retain them. if your opponent is the same as you, except doesn't have wants to retire, then you effectively give up tv to that opponent.

for example, my player has played 2 seasons, and wants to retire. He has 3 skills. In order to keep him on my team, i need to pay an extra 40k, on top of his tv. That means I'm paying for 5 skills, even though I'm only keeping his 3 skills. My opponent (without wants to retire) actually gets to keep 5 skills for the same cost.

However, I think this whole rule still encourages keeping legends and rookies; in particular, keeping 1 legend killer and 1 legend baller, and then having a team full of rookies, has been shown to be very very effective in box.

But, it's also been shown to be a very negative gameplay experience for other players. So I don't think this rule is actually particularly good in any kind of perpetual league.

Waagh

Joined: Apr 13, 2019

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 19:38

Perhaps amendments to these are the "all new rules" we will get in 2020? If cyanide is to be the video game version then perhaps GW are creating better rules to fit perpetual leagues?

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 20:15

ph0enyx13 wrote:

Garion wrote:

Balle2000 wrote:

ph0enyx13 wrote:

In NAF tournaments, Lizardmen have the 3rd highest win rate. The new MVP rules more than make up for the seasons/wants to retire rules.

The rules aren't really made for the resurrection format though.

Not sure that's true. There have been a number of people involved in designing the rules since the lrbs started and even to this day that are heavily involved in the resurrection tourney scene.

I would agree if you said it's not the primary design goal but I am sure it is a secondary consideration when making roster changes. Players like hefty or ooligan for example are perfect for that scene but add little to nothing in scheduled leagues for example.

What makes hefties and ooligans good for res but bad outside of res?

well I could talk for a long long time about the pros and cons. I know its a long post but I really tried to keep it as brief as possible...

Hefties - have P access, which is nonsensical, but makes them much more useful in res tournaments. It means you can trim your TV and have leader skill on a single roll. A rr would normally cost 60TV, but now you get an av7 fling with fend and a RR for 70k. So you can easily take 1 without it impacting your resurrection style fling line up (obviously these things vary depending on the tournament Comp) but it would be something like this -
2 Treemen
9 Halfling
1 Hefty with leader
1 Re-roll
Total 610k
Deeproot 300
Chef 100

so that's 1010k and then you can look at swapping flings for catchers, and adding additional skills, adding apo till you get up to the what ever the tournaments starting roster cost is. So lets just use the World Cup rules in this instance for arguments sake -
1,250,000 gold pieces to spend for halflings

so 1,100,000 gold pieces must be spend before doing skills.

2 Treemen = 240
1 Deeproot = 300
1 Catchers = 50
1 Hefty = 50
8 flings = 240
1 apo = 50
1 Re-roll = 60
1 chef = 100

1100 which then means we have 150k to spend on skills before out first game, or a bigger bench. if you like

20k on leader
50k +ag on Catcher (50k in world cup rules)
80k still to spend on what ever, cba to think about it, but you get the idea.
(also I am not saying this is the best starting roster for flings in the world cup rules, its just an example)

The point here is the bolted on P access is really only there to get leader, and adding a RR and saving you TV here is much more useful in this setting where your team is healed after every game.

Basically you can do the same with Ooligan in a Goblin team, playing him for one purpose only to get the increase fame Ooligan supplies.

Now if you are playing in a league with goblins and flings, both hefties and Ooligan aren't worth bothering with (assuming you are trying to be the most competitive you can be with these races in a TV efficiency methodology). Hefties I think a case can be made for taking one (as a leader caddy, though I'm still not convinced) with flings, but Ooligan especially is nothing but pure TV bloat. In a scheduled league you do not know what your oppositions TV is going to be and you need to keep your team really trim in order to get Bribes with goblins, and Chef (plus a star player hopefully) with halflings. Any unwanted TV increase decrease the likelihood of you getting the inducements you want. This ^ (among other reasons) is why I wanted Master Chef to be a permanent inclusion in a fling roster with a specified TV cost associated instead of an inducement only, and also why I wanted Secret Weapon rolls back in the game instead of the auto sending off for weapons. Because neither of these things were addressed in the 2016 edition of blood bowl the "TV gaming" and extreme min maxing with these races is still the optimal way to play them (from a hyper competitive point of view), instead of team building in a more natural way.

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ph0enyx13

Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 20:33

I would have thought the hefties would have been useful as LOS fodder to go between the trees. But I get what you are saying. I only take zon throwers in res to be leader caddies.

But I get what you are saying. All the gobbos and flings got were 1 positional each that is for NAF style and 1 positional for throw teammate attempts.

Java

Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Posted: Aug 05, 2019 - 21:08

Garion wrote:

He is referring to older editions with each section of his post. E.g. one section mentioned ageing rolls referring to lrb4. DP part is in reference to lrb1.3 i think, though it didn't quite work like that, though not far off.

Thanks, I can only go back to LRB5 and that's pretty hazy in my memory

Gnoblar

Joined: Mar 01, 2017

Posted: Aug 06, 2019 - 01:08

I'm still convinced the Secret League Skinks roster (or something similar) should be made official. Would be a brilliant time to release it alongside the new Lizardman models and it makes for an interesting stunty team (with some skink posistionals!).

Garion

Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Posted: Aug 06, 2019 - 17:53

GnoblarBezer wrote:

I'm still convinced the Secret League Skinks roster (or something similar) should be made official. Would be a brilliant time to release it alongside the new Lizardman models and it makes for an interesting stunty team (with some skink posistionals!).

That's very kind, though I don't see this happening. Nothing stopping you using that skinks roster in your TT league though Smile

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