Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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  Posted:
Sep 11, 2021 - 22:33 |
 
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From the latest FAQs
| Quote: | Q: What happens if a player rolls a random Skill and gains one that they could take, but cannot actually use? Such as if a player with the No Hands trait gained the Catch skill. (p.74)
A: In these instances, roll again until they gain a Skill they
could actually use |
I can think of a few that fall under this definition.
1) Ball and Chain forbids Juggernaut, Break Tackle, jump up, dirty player*, sneaky git*
1b) Ball and Chain with Pile Driver allows dirty player, sneaky git
1c) Ball and Chain with No Hands forbids very long legs
2) no hands forbids Catch, sure hands, safe pair of hands, diving catch, extra arms, monstrous mouth, big hand, all passing skill except on the ball and leader*
2b) no hands and bombardier allows any passing skills except fumblerooskie
2c) on the ball still explicitly forbidden by Ball and Chain no matter what combination of no hands and/or bombardier is also present
3) av8+ or lower forbids Iron Hard Skin
4) pa- forbids all passing skills apart from Leader, On the ball, fumblerooskie, dump-off, nerves of steel
5) st8 forbids dauntless
5b) st8 with multiple block allows dauntless
6) ST4 or lower Ogres (and other players with TTM) cannot use TTM, and therefore Strong Arm is forbidden to them
7) Monstrous Mouth FORBIDS Catch.
7b) Catch + Sure Hands FORBIDS Monstrous Mouth.
7c) ball and chain (without no hands) + monstruous mouth FORBIDS sure hands |
Last edited by Java on Dec 29, 2021; edited 11 times in total |
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C0ddlefish
Joined: Sep 17, 2019
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| Posted:
Sep 11, 2021 - 22:42 |
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B&C can still use Wrestle to bring down a block opponent so think that is fair to be a usable skill (even if very niche). Can Thick Skull help an b&C if surfed? If so, still valid (but again niche). |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Sep 11, 2021 - 22:47 |
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Ball and chain counts all stunned results as KOs
Therefore there is no difference between them and the skill, one could argue, is "not used"
Similarly you could say that IF you already have pile driver on your fanatic, dirty player and sneaky git become legal |
_________________
Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2021 - 01:50 |
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Players with PA - also can't use most passing skills.
Fumblerooskie, Leader, Nerves of Steel, and On the Ball are OK. So Accurate, Cannoneer, Cloud Burster, Dump-Off, Hail Mary Pass, Pass, Running Pass, and Safe Pass are out.
VLL can be used with no hands, as it modifies the Jump result, and Wights can Jump.
VLL can't be used if you have both Ball & Chain and No Hands, as then you can't interfere or jump.
Can't use DP or SG with Ball & Chain unless it already has Piledriver. Like, a one skill fanatic with Dirty Player can't use the skill, and the FAQ says, what do I do if I can't actually use the skill.
That's what the word "actually" means. It's different to "potentially".
I understand the implementation issues around conditions, but also, it's better to forbid something that's normally forbidden.
Also, like, an Allows array that over-rides the Forbids array, so Piledriver Allows DP and SG, even if previously banned. And Bombadier allows the passing skills.
What else.
Max ST is 8, so player with ST 8 can't take Dauntless unless they have Multiple Block.
Players with AV 7 or less can't take Iron Hard Skin. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2021 - 09:16 |
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I've edited your analysis into the list above using the forbid/allow keywords and added that bombardier doesn't unlock fumblerooskie for no hands players
Might need a final double check  |
_________________
Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2021 - 09:53 |
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I'm not including +PA in the "no hands forbids" list as it's not a skill (so not covered by the faq) and you will always have alternatives to it such as another stat or a secondary skill |
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King_Ghidra
Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2021 - 10:51 |
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some of these don't fall under the this rule.
iron hard skin? anyone can use iron hard skin to stop an opposing player using claw against them. the skill is used successfully regardless of your av. fwiw, a player could get iron hard skin and subsequently get an av increase that means they now get value from the skill. but this is irrelevant, the value is not the issue here it's the ability to actually use the skill. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2021 - 12:20 |
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A goblin with iron hard skin is knocked down by a yeti. The armour roll is 8+. But the goblin uses iron hard skin to cancel claw. Now the armour roll is 8+.
I'm not sure what was the point there.
Anything else apart from IHS? |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2021 - 18:39 |
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Ball & Chain + Pile Driver and Sneaky Git would really suck: all it would do is maybe allow you to go to the KO bin rather than the ejected bin, and then get ejected at the end of the drive anyway. Technically usable, but totally useless. So ... does that make it actually useful? I mean, it has an application, but it's truly pathetic. Like, do we wanna live in a world where we do that to a coach who takes a Ball and Chain, then keeps him through Pile Driver and takes a random secondary? |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2021 - 19:53 |
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do you want to be boring, or do you want to be remembered as the guy who has a fanatic with a foul counter larger than 0?  |
_________________
Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Sep 12, 2021 - 19:58 |
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It's one less bribe to keep him in the game, so yes, it has uses. (And could otherwise be relevant in secret league or other custom rosters) |
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Sai_Maa
Joined: Mar 08, 2017
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| Posted:
Sep 14, 2021 - 08:04 |
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| tussock wrote: | Players with PA - also can't use most passing skills.
Fumblerooskie, Leader, Nerves of Steel, and On the Ball are OK. So Accurate, Cannoneer, Cloud Burster, Dump-Off, Hail Mary Pass, Pass, Running Pass, and Safe Pass are out.
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Player with "PA -" can take PA stat up and get to PA6+, "No Hands" however denies handling ball altogether |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
Sep 14, 2021 - 09:43 |
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I'd say tussock's first post here argued quite convincingly that the potential of using the skill later doesn't mean actually being able to use that skill now, and so doesn't clear the skill for selection.
one little change: thick skull is off the list, quoting an argument from discord here
| Quote: | Ball & Chain: "If this player ever Falls Over, is Knocked Down, or is Placed Prone, [roll injury] treating a stunned result as a KO result."
The Injury by the Crowd rule is its own injury modifications, and does not call to Falls Over, Knocked Down, or Placed Prone.
So you just don't apply that (If - then) function in the Ball & Chain. |
thick skull comes in handy if the crowd rolls for injury on your fanatic
very narrow use, but still
EDIT
and it works fine in the client, if you have a TS B&C chainpushed, an injury roll of 8 goes into the reserves |
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Kransky
Joined: Sep 12, 2005
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| Posted:
Oct 27, 2021 - 14:09 |
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There’s one more: Throw Team Mate requires ST5 to use - so an Ogre that has suffered a -STR injury therefore has strong arm forbidden. |
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Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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| Posted:
Oct 27, 2021 - 14:26 |
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Fun topic.
I would disagree with the AV 8+ and Iron Hard Skin. The skill still works; just not doing anything very useful.
It would be much better if this was the way the rules worked as Gutter Runners would have better odds on that random double Mutation they take. IHS really needed to stop any modifiers to the AV roll including chainsaw and fouling to make it worth taking; but that is really a different topic. |
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Nuffle wills it.
Lyracian. |
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