Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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 Posted:
May 01, 2025 - 16:37 |
 
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Good afternoon
I wanted to put down some ideas and considerations regarding a question that routinely comes up regarding the client
How cool would it be if/when will FUMBBL be adapted for 7s/DB/etc.?
I'm not a coder. I haven't written code from scratch in a long time. But I have a very, very, very, very vague idea of the inner workings of the client and I might shed a little light on the answer to that question.
First of all, the code is Open Source and therefore YOU, yes, you can have a pop at adapting it to variant rules, if you have the time and skills necessary.
Secondly, in a very simplified way, every part of the code has to "link" to something else, a failed pickup leads to a bounce, a scatter outside the pitch leads to a throw in, a knockdown to an armour roll, and so on and so forth. Any change to anything must be accounted for, therefore any group of changes increase the amount of "fixes" to other parts of the code, exponentially. Anything that has no clear outcome, results in a bug or even a game crash.
How far is SEVENS
1) The standard pitch is 26x15, the sevens pitch is smaller. Everything that is built upon pitch size needs to be adapted or rewritten. For example, surfs and throw-ins.
2) Setup is different. Some League settings already allow for some semblance of Sevens setup but there's currently no way to have two lines of scrimmage or the different kickoff/scatter/etc.
3) The kickoff table is different. Every result needs to be redone and re-tested.
4) Site-side, the Sevens skillup system needs to be rebuilt from scratch. Client-side, I don't remember if SPPs even exist when playing sevens.
5) Graphics need to be adapted. The client window is tailored for the current pitch size, so probably a new set of assets (dugouts, pitch, bars, etc) needs to be made or resized from old ones.
6) game duration is different. Currently the client only supports 8-turn halves.
This list is non-exhaustive. Once all of that is done, thorough testing has to be done for all possible interactions that might "break" (i.e. interrupt, sometimes irreparably) a match.
How far is DUNGEONBOWL
1) first of all there is no "standard pitch" so it must be decide if there's going to be ONE dungeon (it makes every other step easier) or multiple dungeons
2) introduce the event of a player being pushed into a wall, throw away all the code about surfs (and halves, and kickoff table, etc). While you're there, make sure no player can ever walk into a wall voluntarily or cross walls (the "modified pitch" needs impassable areas)
3) ball interacting with walls, statues, teleporters and bottomless pits
4) players jumping over (or into) said bottomless pits; players entering a teleporter; players coming into play from the dugouts
5) a whole list of new skills that only work in Dungenbowl
6) teleporter and treasure chest placement, be it random, fixed, or with some coach input, needs all the guidelines and limitations built in
7) if there's only one Dungeon (heck, even if there's multiple options!) be prepared to be the arbiter of balance. Does this map allow for big guys walling off the endzone? is one of the two endoznes harder to reach? people will have opinions.
The same caveats given for the sevens process apply here too.
Finally, bear in mind there's no estimation of how long will this take to write, and test, and combine with site infrastructure.
Well, hope you enjoyed the ride. If someone has been moved to "trying", that's probably a miracle. It's understandable (if a bit optimistic) when the first impression one gets is "how hard could it be"  but the answer is "all I've listed above, and then some"  |
_________________
Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 01, 2025 - 17:25 |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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| Posted:
May 01, 2025 - 20:00 |
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I've given consideration in the past to trying to implement 7s on the client, since it is open source, and I do code for a living. But then whenever I start looking at it, I run into the problem I often do with coding in my free time - that is, I already spend 8 hours a day doing this, do I essentially want to be working a second job during my nights with the same thing? And personally I find the (necessary) part of understanding the existing codebase larger and less fun than implementing new bits in. |
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quix
Joined: Jun 04, 2024
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May 01, 2025 - 22:03 |
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I've also given some thought into 7s. I have poked around the code some, just not in the areas that would need to change to fully implement 7s. There are 7s leagues in fumbbl that get by with these limitations but it would be nice if it was fully supported.
How close are we to a new platform? It might be easier to retrofit our current client than waiting for a new one. Sure it will have to be ported again but I don't think that is the end of the world.
Like Drrek eludes to, it is a large code base and there is the task for getting familiar with the scope of the changes before trying to even writing a line of code. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 01, 2025 - 23:09 |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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| Posted:
May 03, 2025 - 17:24 |
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Thanks for sharing your perspective guys |
_________________
Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist |
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JamesLangley
Joined: Jul 24, 2022
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| Posted:
May 03, 2025 - 21:05 |
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As much as I'd love to see implementation of other game modes on FUMBBL, I'd rather see Death Zone inducements added (even if only for League play), given that many real life NAF-sanctioned tournaments allow access to them. Canada's major NAF tournament, Spike!, allows for the Giant mercenary to be taken, for example. It would be nice if FUMBBL could be used as a platform for testing for these major real life tournaments, even if it means just the more common, "tournament" DZ inducements being added (the Giant, Heady Brew, Team Mascot, Waaagh! Drummer).
Obviously FUMBBL is primarily worked on by only a couple people and asking them to add even more features IS asking a lot (I want to reemphasize that I am very appreciative for the work Christer/Candlejack/others have done), but it would be nice to see some of these more common DZ inducements get implemented at some point, and are what I personally would prefer to see prioritized in the new features/game modes realm.
On a side note, if FUMBBL's coders were open to it, I'm sure a good chunk of the playerbase would be open to helping to financially crowdfund implementation of these features (although I understand time is probably the more restrictive resource.) |
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Sharkrudi
Joined: Dec 19, 2011
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| Posted:
May 03, 2025 - 21:29 |
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Carabor
Joined: Jan 25, 2007
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May 04, 2025 - 14:30 |
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As a modern approach of the Blood Bowl family, we should also consider to put "Blitz Bowl" on this list.
While there would be major changes and coding needed, there are interesting advantages for the player base here:
- compared to "Dungeonbowl" or "Deathbowl" it would cover a more widely and new player base (for Fumbbl)
- it would be attractive for a large (in comparison to Fumbbl active coaches) number of board game players
- therefore it could lead to new blood for blood bowl (more than the other incarnations) / keep the entry level in mind
- furthermore its a faster incarnation in the game family (also here: keep in mind that the long playing time of BB is one of the most critisised aspect) |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 04, 2025 - 15:18 |
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Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 06, 2025 - 04:22 |
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| JamesLangley wrote: | As much as I'd love to see implementation of other game modes on FUMBBL, I'd rather see Death Zone inducements added (even if only for League play), given that many real life NAF-sanctioned tournaments allow access to them. Canada's major NAF tournament, Spike!, allows for the Giant mercenary to be taken, for example. It would be nice if FUMBBL could be used as a platform for testing for these major real life tournaments, even if it means just the more common, "tournament" DZ inducements being added (the Giant, Heady Brew, Team Mascot, Waaagh! Drummer).
Obviously FUMBBL is primarily worked on by only a couple people and asking them to add even more features IS asking a lot (I want to reemphasize that I am very appreciative for the work Christer/Candlejack/others have done), but it would be nice to see some of these more common DZ inducements get implemented at some point, and are what I personally would prefer to see prioritized in the new features/game modes realm.
On a side note, if FUMBBL's coders were open to it, I'm sure a good chunk of the playerbase would be open to helping to financially crowdfund implementation of these features (although I understand time is probably the more restrictive resource.) |
I 2nd this as it would help add more variety to our FUMBBL NAF events...especially the GIANT! |
_________________
"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
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Carabor
Joined: Jan 25, 2007
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May 06, 2025 - 07:44 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Doesn't 7s cover that space better? |
For coaches who already play normal BB - yes. That's for a smaller target group tough.
(i feel 7s is more a kind of BB replacement for veterans with less time - but not the thing to start with BB first)
To recruit new ones and gain interest outside of the niche - Blitz Bowl could be the more easier thing. Target group covers more players (outside the bubble and younger ones).
Could be a german / central european point of view tough. |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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May 06, 2025 - 19:45 |
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Blitz bowl is very different from Blood Bowl, it is a modern board game, while Blood bowl is much closer to a miniature wargame.
I believe it would be easier to start from scratch than use the current client to implement it.
I also think that because of the difference Blitzbowl is not so good for recruiting new Bloodbowl players. Many people who like Blitzbowl won't like Blood Bowl because, as I said, the game is very different apart from the world they play in. |
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Carabor
Joined: Jan 25, 2007
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May 06, 2025 - 20:44 |
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Is the last point proven or your point of view?
I agree about the implementation and the differences.
It's the perspective as a low level entry - a thing which BB itself is missing. Games Workshop doesn't publish those board games like Kill Team, Underworlds, Warcry, Bladeborn, Fireteam... for the sake of their own. They publish them for new target groups and getting those (newbies) into the hobby and the big systems (40k and fantasy line). And it works. It works also for BB. That's why i throw it into the ring.
You'll get more new blood with a implementation like this compared to let's say Death Bowl. I'm sure the time will come that Fumbbl also needs new blood...
It's just one opinion a single aspect to think of. |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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May 06, 2025 - 22:21 |
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Of course it's not proven;) But I've read/heard a couple of times that people think blitzbowl is the superior game because blood bowl is much to convoluted, when you come from a modern board game perspective. (And that's not my point of view, Blitzbowl for me is just strange, that you can win a game without winning the match.)
This could even lead to fumbbl losing playerbase, because blitz bowl is more attractive for some as a quick game. Anyway BlitzBowl being implemented is the most unlikely thing that will happen I think. Adding some DeathBowl extra rules is probably the least amount of work. But finally they who do it are going to decide themselves, on what they spend their time. And that's fine.  |
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