MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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 Posted:
May 09, 2025 - 14:10 |
 
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Because, between Gamefinder and Box, the latter is the true competitive division.
Trophy and IRONDWARF games are played in the Box for that reason.
Gamefinder is the "League division with CR points for pickers" (so, not competitive, thus no need to use the timer).
You should assume that there is a competitive mindset in the Box when you activate, and competitive mindset implies automatic time-out.
So, if you want to play in a relaxed, casual way, you can pick easy opponents on Gamefinder, without the time-out pressure.
Competitive coaches can play in the Box, casual coaches in the Gamefinder, both happy. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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May 09, 2025 - 14:15 |
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Yeah, the current system seems to solve the problem of anyone taking the mickey with consistent long turns. If you feel bad for using the button in a particular situation, that's probably an indication that it's not an appropriate situation for someone to be timed out.
Automating it doesn't make it any more appropriate of a situation. It just implements an inappropriate action. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 09, 2025 - 14:20 |
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Competitive Chess has a time control. It's not inappropriate, it's just to keep games competitive and playable in a reasonable time window.
If you can't play fast enough then you should not be playing in a competitive division.
| Joost wrote: | | A kid waking up and needing something, a doorbell, a partner that needs quick help with something and many other things can occur where an automatic timeout would be a game spoiler. Even grabbing a drink would be tricky. If you feel the great need to timeout just warn your opponent and hit that button. No change is needed. |
I'm not responsible for my opponent's kid. If they decided to play a game with a kid to babysit then it's theirs, not mine, problem. The same goes for grabbing a drink. You should get the drinks, food etc. before starting the game.
The same goes for playing at work. If you decide to play when you are supposed to do something else then it's not your opponent's fault if you are interrupted. You should not be pissed off by the time-out, but just blame yourself for playing when you could have been interrupted. |
Last edited by MattDakka on May 09, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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May 09, 2025 - 14:26 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Because, between Gamefinder and Box, the latter is the true competitive division. |
Assuming that's true, a more competitive division should surely follow the official rules more closely, not less? There is no timeout rule in Blood Bowl. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 09, 2025 - 14:28 |
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Ok. Let's play without time-out. When I'm losing (or even when I'm not losing) I just stop playing and you can't force me to finish the game.
See why it's important to have a time control? |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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May 09, 2025 - 14:38 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Ok. Let's play without time-out. When I'm losing (or even when I'm not losing) I just stop playing and you can't force me to finish the game.
See why it's important to have a time control? |
I've never denied the importance of keeping to a reaonable time. It's part of the sort of social contract that you enter in to with your opponent when you play any kind of game.
The only thing I question is an attempt to automate what is a social situation. It seems natural to me that potential social pitfalls ideally involve some social element in their solutions.
(Note that the example you give there is about being a pillock in a social sense, as a human playing a game. Not about game play as a coach. A social issue, in other words.) |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 09, 2025 - 14:46 |
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Social situations are better regulated by automatic rules, not by vague arbitrary opinions, expectations, behaviours, hopes.
If you always expect a time-out at 4 minutes, you won't be upset by it, because it's enforced by the client. If you hope that your opponent won't time you out when the 4 minutes expire then you will be frustrated when the opponent enforces it.
It's just simple logic. |
Last edited by MattDakka on May 09, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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May 09, 2025 - 15:45 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
| koadah wrote: | The timeout button is there.
Press it or don't. The choice is yours. |
Not really. If I want to press the time-out button I can't do it if the opponent writes "brb" in the game chat. This is potentially an exploitable thing that should not be allowed in a Competitive game.
"Brb" in game chat can be cunningly used to gain an unfair advantage, buying extra time to study what to do during a hard turn.
I don't care in League division, but in Competitive division there are CR points to gain or lose and the environment should have a certain degree of competitiveness (with automatic time-out). |
The fact that we have the BRB rule should be enough to show why the auto timeout won't work for a lot of people.
A game of BB can easily last an hour+.
I'm sure that a lot of coaches have a fair chance of being interrupted during that time. And some people are just slow.
Personally, I am certainly NOT going to play in the [C]ompetitive division but you may end up losing quite a few people who you might miss more.  |
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Open/Gamefinder play |
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MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
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| Posted:
May 09, 2025 - 15:47 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Ok. Let's play without time-out. When I'm losing (or even when I'm not losing) I just stop playing and you can't force me to finish the game.
See why it's important to have a time control? |
This is against fumbbl rules |
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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
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Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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| Posted:
May 09, 2025 - 15:51 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
| Joost wrote: | | A kid waking up and needing something, a doorbell, a partner that needs quick help with something and many other things can occur where an automatic timeout would be a game spoiler. Even grabbing a drink would be tricky. If you feel the great need to timeout just warn your opponent and hit that button. No change is needed. |
I'm not responsible for my opponent's kid. If they decided to play a game with a kid to babysit then it's theirs, not mine, problem. The same goes for grabbing a drink. You should get the drinks, food etc. before starting the game.
The same goes for playing at work. If you decide to play when you are supposed to do something else then it's not your opponent's fault if you are interrupted. You should not be pissed off by the time-out, but just blame yourself for playing when you could have been interrupted. |
That's nonsense of course. If you were to have a friend over for a tabletop game in the evening and one of your young children wakes up from a nightmare your friend would not at all be bothered to take a break for that. In fact, he would probably be weirded out if you ignore it.
I see no reason why a Blackbox game would have different rules applied than a game I would have with a friend in real life.
Similarly, I like a beer in the evening with a game. I will not have that warm up for 60 minutes next to me in case I want one at some point. If I feel like a beer in T12, no one would object to wait a minute for that.
And finally, you mention work as an equivalent reason as if I did. I did not. Playing during work hours is the responsibility of the player. And you can time someone out if that is crossing the border. Autotimeout adds nothing here.
An unexpected phone call can happen though, especially if you're self employed. I have had hotel fire drills bother me during a game. No one with any common sense would time that out.
In short, auto time out would ruin games in many situations, and add value very, very rarely if at any time at all (given that you can timeout already). |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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May 09, 2025 - 16:21 |
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| Joost wrote: |
That's nonsense of course. If you were to have a friend over for a tabletop game in the evening and one of your young children wakes up from a nightmare your friend would not at all be bothered to take a break for that. In fact, he would probably be weirded out if you ignore it. |
That's a game vs a friend and could be played on GF or in League (to make an example), as I suggested, without automatic time-out.
Also, if I were playing vs a friend I could actually check that his kid woke up and wait for him. Online, I can't check whether somebody has a genuine real life issue or he's just exploiting the system. That example doesn't match perfectly the online gaming, where I don't face a person on a table. Moreover, if I play vs a friend, I probably know him well enough to accept in advance that his kid could wake up during the game (and again, it's not my fault if my opponent has a kid to care about). In the Box I can't pick my opponents. I would not play vs people not able to manage their game time, if I could.
| Joost wrote: |
Similarly, I like a beer in the evening with a game. I will not have that warm up for 60 minutes next to me in case I want one at some point. If I feel like a beer in T12, no one would object to wait a minute for that. |
Well, I don't like to wait for somebody grabbing a beer just because he wants to have a fresh drink, if we want to use personal preferences as reasons. Also, he can go grabbing the beer while I'm playing my own turn. Having a fresh beer is not a real issue.
| Joost wrote: | | And finally, you mention work as an equivalent reason as if I did. I did not. Playing during work hours is the responsibility of the player. And you can time someone out if that is crossing the border. Autotimeout adds nothing here. |
Not true. If somebody is working and he gets a phone call or he's called by his boss and writes "brb work issue" I can't time him out. So, autotime-out would make a difference here.
| Joost wrote: |
An unexpected phone call can happen though, especially if you're self employed. |
Sure, and either you play while at phone or just let the turn expire. Again, not your opponent's problem if you play when you can receive a phone call and, if a serious life issue happens, you can just finish the game another day. If you really are experiencing a real life emergency losing a game should not be that serious for you, right?
| Joost wrote: | | In short, auto time out would ruin games in many situations, and add value very, very rarely if at any time at all (given that you can timeout already). |
Auto time-outs for the Box, no auto time-outs for GF, that's my recipe. Fits casual and committed coaches. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 09, 2025 - 16:32 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
May 09, 2025 - 16:38 |
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We can't know for sure that automatic time-out in the Box would drive many people off.
It could drive off people not liking it but draw coaches who don't like to waste time, on the other hand.
In most games 4 minutes are enough to play all the turns, but automatic time-out would remove the rage when somebody decided to enforce it.
In the end it's more a matter of expecting or not expecting it than a serious gameplay limitation (unless you are very new to the game, but then you should not be playing in the Box).
Moreover, as far as I know, there is a time limit in Cyanide BB and there are more users than on FUMBBL, without time limit. We can't correlate for sure automatic time-out with userbase loss. |
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Leonidas82
Joined: Sep 16, 2022
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May 09, 2025 - 17:05 |
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I agree with some points advocating for the auto time outs. But on the other hand, I am with Joost. I enjoy a game of BB in the evening, but family issues and empty drinks interfere quite often (think it never took me unnecessary long away). Maybe it could be an optional feature which is activated when both coaches agree actively at the start of the game? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
May 09, 2025 - 17:48 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | We can't know for sure that automatic time-out in the Box would drive many people off.
It could drive off people not liking it but draw coaches who don't like to waste time, on the other hand.
In most games 4 minutes are enough to play all the turns, but automatic time-out would remove the rage when somebody decided to enforce it.
In the end it's more a matter of expecting or not expecting it than a serious gameplay limitation (unless you are very new to the game, but then you should not be playing in the Box).
Moreover, as far as I know, there is a time limit in Cyanide BB and there are more users than on FUMBBL, without time limit. We can't correlate for sure automatic time-out with userbase loss. |
Feel free to try Cyanide and tell us if it is better. |
_________________
NO Seasons, 2016 Progression, KO Tournaments, --- All Star Bowl - Always recruiting!
Open/Gamefinder play |
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