Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
|
 Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 04:37 |
 
|
If you warn someone about timing them out, and they do it anyway, then its on them. Sometimes the person getting timed out is in the wrong, but that doesn't mean an automatic timer is what we should have.
I will say, I'd explicitly warn them with not just "time check" but "I will time you out if you go over again." As a niche nerd community, we have people who will not be socially adept and will not necessarily understand implicit warnings.
In the case listed there, the player who was timed out was in the wrong, and salty about it. The people who time out automatically without warning aren't breaking rules, but I would still say they are the wrong. This site isn't a ranked ladder of faceless people to beat to climb the rankings; it's a community of blood bowl nerds. It is important that we respect each other's lives. Both for the slow players to respect their opponents when they ask them to not go over time, and for the players who time out to respect that their opponents have lives and to give the grace to at least warn before timing out (and certainly not time out when someone has to brb or something). |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 04:39 |
|
| MattDakka wrote: | We can't know for sure that automatic time-out in the Box would drive many people off.
It could drive off people not liking it but draw coaches who don't like to waste time, on the other hand. |
Maybe Matt is right.
Maybe the people that we'd miss most have already gone.
We can just abandon the [C]ompetitive division to the competitive coaches.
It is called the "Competitive Division" after all. |
_________________
NO Seasons! 2016 Progression, KO Tournaments, --- All Star Bowl - Always recruiting!
Open/Gamefinder play |
|
CoachBuck
Joined: Feb 26, 2020
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 04:40 |
|
Also responding to the many posts about how often this has been discussed. I too have seen these posts on a semi-regular basis. It’s one of the few constants on the Fumbbl forum I’ve come to expect: Fumbbl Haikus and Complaints about the Time Out Procedure. If this has been heavily debated since 2006 there clearly is at least cause to consider why it is so often brought up as an issue - for nearly 20 years this has been complained about. Whatever solutions have been attempted, they have still led to regular forum posts like this one.
I really resonate with Murker's take on it. I also really appreciate Drrek's response.
I’ve found a lot of value in the discussion just to come full circle with the idea that the timing system really doesn’t matter because at its core Fumbbl caters best to the more casual style of play which I believe is actually the way the game is meant to be played. The culture of Fumbbl is more about the spirit of the game. If you’re playing to win though, there can be conflicts, like the time-out rule. Win-at-all costs play is likely better suited for BB3 at the moment. So, my quest for stars on my profile and CR doesn’t feel all that important anymore. It’s the places where the time-out button doesn’t really matter where I have the most fun on Fumbbl: leagues. I just assumed in the competitive events the time-out procedure would’ve had a more established role. Nope, still just as contentious.
The open ended nature of time outs will cause continued debates and frustration I’m sure, but I’m content simply existing in the non-time out land. At least until I don’t have to be the guy pressing the button haha.
Thanks everyone for all your input! |
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 12:10 |
|
| koadah wrote: |
We can just abandon the [C]ompetitive division to the competitive coaches.
It is called the "Competitive Division" after all. |
No need to quit the Competitive division:
automatic time-out in Box games;
manual time-out in Gamefinder games (and Gamefinder is still in Competitive division).
There is no need to have manual time-out in both.
It's better to let people with similar mindsets playing each other.
You have kids, you want to play while working, you need to drink fresh beers? Play on GF or in League division.
You want to play with automatic time-out, without having to face the rage of people pissed off by enforced time-outs and being sure to finish the game in a certain time window? Play in the Box.
It's really simple and inclusive for both casual and competitive coaches.
It's not going to happen, but it's just to show that, if there were will, it could be possible to make a system inclusive for both casual and competitive coaches. |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 12:52 |
|
The two main metas BBT & IDT are both Box only. If more people pull out of there you will find it harder to get games.
The Fumbbl community is not massive. It requires a certain amount compromise to keep a healthy number of coaches in Box.
I'm sure that many would eventually press the button if the opponent is often going over 4.5-5 mins.
I also think that some would let it go if the opponent occasionally drifts over but finishes in 5-10 seconds.
I have for years suggested a warning at 3:45. BB2 at least had the time clearly visible on the pitch.
The Fumbbl clock is not something that I will see unless I thik to look.
I think that the current system works for the most people.
If it really means that much to you, press the button.
You can warn them at the beginning of the game.
If you want to be a nice guy, you can warn them again at the first 3:30 or 3:45.
You could let them go over the first time then warn them thay next time you'll time out dead on 4:00.
But seriously, you don't have to warn them at all. |
_________________
NO Seasons! 2016 Progression, KO Tournaments, --- All Star Bowl - Always recruiting!
Open/Gamefinder play |
|
Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 13:10 |
|
Just a thought on competitiveness, because the word keeps getting invoked.
Competition happens within the game. The two players are competitors in that respect. If you are more competitive maybe you make steady percentage plays, rather than cinematic plays that will look cool if they come off. If you're being competitive, you give the touchback to a hobgoblin or a bull centaur, rather than your minotaur, because even though the latter is objectively more funny, it'll win less games! If you're being competitive maybe you never take random skills even though it's more interesting, instead building only dwarf teams and giving them all guard. More competitive play could (ironically!) mean sitting and calculating out candidate moves for ages rather than playing on instinct.
But in terms of actually managing the playing of any game, the two players are collaborators, not competitors. Competitiveness doesn't mean wanting to 'win' because of things outside of the game. It doesn't mean 'winning' if you could somehow get an advantage out of your collaborator wanting to get a beer or having to answer the door. It wouldn't mean something like deliberately trying to socially 'tilt' your opponent so they get angry/fed up and play less optimally themselves. Nor is cheating at a game being competitive. Those sorts of things all count as someone treating the act of "being a gamemate" competitively, not playing the game competitively: turning that collaborative social interaction of managing a game together into some sort of zero-sum affair.
However competitive you are in your gameplay is unrelated to your expectations and how you act in mediating the actual process of gaming with your opponent-collaborator. They're two different things. |
|
|
MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 13:18 |
|
after first season box is as competitive as gamefinder, there is no competitions going in there except maybe 2 players going for iron dorf high score. |
_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 13:42 |
|
Both BBT and IRONDWARF take place in the Box and not on GF.
Why? Because, if picking opponent were allowed, you could exploit it to get an advantage in the Trophy and the IRONDWARF run. If GF games were allowed, the competition would shift towards carefully picking the easiest opponents game after game.
If "casual coaches" and "competitive coaches" are not liked, replace them with: "coaches wanting to play without automatic time-out" and "coaches wanting to play with automatic time-out".
I'm not against the site being inclusive to coaches wanting to play without automatic time-out and coaches wanting to play with automatic time-out.
The site is closer to perfection when accomodates more kinds of coaches and that's good (things should try to get closer to perfection).
My only issue with that is when different mindsets (no automatic time-out and automatic time-out coaches) are paired (due to different expectations of the coaches involved about time control system).
I hope I've explained it better now. |
|
|
MerryZ
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 15:26 |
|
BBT is on first season, most irondwarf is on first season. Only handfull of coaches play iron dworf after that.
After first season box so close to gamefinder on competitiveness, as its nonexistent. Its just for people to build teams to tournaments 99% of the time. |
_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies. |
|
Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 15:48 |
|
| MattDakka wrote: | Both BBT and IRONDWARF take place in the Box and not on GF.
Why? Because, if picking opponent were allowed, you could exploit it to get an advantage in the Trophy and the IRONDWARF run. If GF games were allowed, the competition would shift towards carefully picking the easiest opponents game after game.
If "casual coaches" and "competitive coaches" are not liked, replace them with: "coaches wanting to play without automatic time-out" and "coaches wanting to play with automatic time-out".
I'm not against the site being inclusive to coaches wanting to play without automatic time-out and coaches wanting to play with automatic time-out.
The site is closer to perfection when accomodates more kinds of coaches and that's good (things should try to get closer to perfection).
My only issue with that is when different mindsets (no automatic time-out and automatic time-out coaches) are paired (due to different expectations of the coaches involved about time control system).
I hope I've explained it better now. |
The rules are clear already, you can time out if you want to. There's no ambiguity. Then there is the point of being a good opponent and, given the fact that not everyone will expect an immediate click the first time 4 minutes is hit, a warning at the start of the game would be nice. Simple, nothing is lost at all. I cannot understand why anyone would object to 2 seconds work of common courtesy but I have taken flak for that before so clearly some people find that too much to ask.
Timing people automatically out of real life issues would be against everything that to me fumbbl stands for: competitive but always from a 'good citizen' perspective. |
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 15:59 |
|
I can't always time out an opponent, site rules forbid to do it in certain situations, as you know.
If I could always manual time an opponent out it would be ok. It would be worse than automatic time-out, but better than the current: "you can't time-out if the opponent writes brb" rule.
Also, an opponent can keep the game stuck if they don't set up the players at start of a half/drive and the opponent can keep the game stuck if they don't select to use Fend, Stand Firm, Diving Tackle, Shadowing, Side Step, etc. and, not uncommonly, those kinds of coaches can even disconnect several times in a game, adding even more time wasting.
There can even be a combination like: you manually time-out an opponent (legally), they get pissed off, they start to grief by not selecting Stand Firm, Fend etc. and by not setting up their players (and there is no set up timer, thus you can't time them out).
I know that I can call an admin and sort that out, but again, it's a waste of time that should be avoided by a simple automated system.
In 2025 having an automatic time control just in one division (not every division) seems reasonable to me.
About the "good citizen": for me a good citizen is somebody who doesn't waste other citizens' time, especially if the interruption is something which is likely going to happen if they play when at work or with other tasks to do, such as babysitting a kid, a pet or whatever else. |
|
|
koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 17:08 |
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 17:11 |
|
So, am I allowed to time out always, no matter what my opponent writes in the game chat?
Is that an official rule? Please, may it be written in the site rules: https://fumbbl.com/p/help?op=rules as official rule, by the way, to point people there in case they start arguing? (and, with an official written site rule, people would be informed in advance, instead of discovering it when not expecting the time-out).
I want to be sure, please.
Also, I'd like a set up timer too. Otherwise I can't always time people out.
The same goes for skills, they need a timer too.
Currently, I repeat, I can't always time people out. |
|
|
Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 17:31 |
|
"You should be considerate to your opponent"
"Sometimes they are inconsiderate to me, and many of the examples I give would be clear rule breaking."
Ah yes, Dakka, you have me, the fact that some people are inconsiderate to others gives you full absolution to completely disregard others. After all we only exist as stepping stones to your rightful place as the greatest coach on this site of a silly football game.
If your opponent is deliberately stalling the game out of spite, then report them. But I know you are arguing this hard because you're afraid someone might get some competitive advantage on you, Dakka. And you think that because that's the only reason you play this game. You think people will take advantage of you with the timer because that is the kind of thing you would do, because you only care about winning.
And I get it, winning is fun. I like to win, and I certainly get upset and salty about losing. But there's so much more to this community than CR, and there's a reason already someone has said in this thread that you drive them off from playing where you play. And its not because they lose, there are plenty of coaches I would play over and over despite the fact that they will beat me the majority of the time.
People don't want to play you because you are arrogant and a bad sport. |
|
|
MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
|
| Posted:
May 11, 2025 - 17:35 |
|
Thanks, I will add "bad sport" to my "About" section!
Much appreciated! 
I don't want examples. I want a clearly written official rule in the FUMBBL rules, not vague handwaving guidelines.
What is considerate and inconsiderate is arguable. Rules should not be arguable, should be clearly written black on white, without any possible ambiguity.
Rule example: "when the 4 minute-timer expires, you are allowed to click on the client's Time-Out button to enforce a time-out".
This is a clear rule. Simple to understand, without any ambiguity and not arguable. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Automatic Time Out O...
Search
