Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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 Posted:
Aug 14, 2025 - 19:46 |
 
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Stalling is blood bowl...clock management and risk mitigation is the whole game. Its where all Tactics stem from. When someone complains about stalling I assume they suck at the game and they have a very shallow understanding of it and the tactical depth this game offers.
And yeah I like your idea but a cap of 3+ is needed. Anymore than 6 moving players and it gets out of hand |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 14, 2025 - 20:09 |
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Ok, so I suck at the game and I have a very shallow understanding of it! Good to know it,
I must be very lucky when I win! |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 14, 2025 - 21:13 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Ok, so I suck at the game and I have a very shallow understanding of it! Good to know it,
I must be very lucky when I win! |
I'm not talking about you 
Stop assuming you're being attacked please.
I think you are trying to address something that people whinge about.
. But those people are fundamentally wrong.
You always stall and manage the clock, coz you know that's what the game is about.
Trying to stop stalling with anti stling rules however is miss guided.
It would be like forcing chess players to take opposing pieces at every opportunity |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 00:42 |
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| Garion wrote: |
Stop assuming you're being attacked please. |
I assumed it because I don't like stalling, especially the static one without risks. I acknowledge it's a big part of the game, but instead of a intended-by-design-concept, it could be just a workaround tactic developed by coaches to minimize the impact of Kick-Off event and removals on a game. The best way to reduce the chance of equalizing a TD is minimizing the opponent's turns left to scoring. The question is: are we sure that game designers play BB stalling as much as we do? Or do they play without stalling? Or with some stalling, but not until the very last turn of a Half? Would the game be better and more enjoyable with less stalling, especially the risk-free static one?
| Garion wrote: | | You always stall and manage the clock, coz you know that's what the game is about. |
I thought it was a game about scoring TDs with a fantasy setting, not the game of fantasy stalling. I got accustomed with it over the years, because it's effective at achieving the win or tie, but it doesn't make me crazy about it. I'm pragmatic and I agree that it's brutally effective, I just doubt that the game is so good and so skilled with static stalling.
| Garion wrote: | | Trying to stop stalling with anti stling rules however is miss guided. |
Stopping? No, just discouraging it a bit with some risks, so a game doesn't turn into a "park-the-cage-near-End-Zone-until-turn-8". Stalling would still be possible, but riskier. That's the idea.
| Garion wrote: |
It would be like forcing chess players to take opposing pieces at every opportunity |
That thing exists: it's a Chess variant called Antichess aka Losing Chess aka Suicide Chess. 
Since this edition sucks and playing forever at an average TV of 1300 is disgusting, not to mention the failed Box draws, I spent some time looking for Chess variants, and now I know more 100 of them! |
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Zelmor
Joined: Sep 29, 2022
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Aug 15, 2025 - 01:43 |
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Go play chess and complain about how castling is stalling and shouldn't be practiced.  |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 15, 2025 - 08:14 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
| Garion wrote: |
It would be like forcing chess players to take opposing pieces at every opportunity |
That thing exists: it's a Chess variant called Antichess aka Losing Chess aka Suicide Chess.
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Yes... anti chess. That's correct.
vis-à-vis implementing anti stalling rules is anti blood bowl, and it's as bad for the game as anti chess rules are for chess.
As for - do the designers stall. Yes, yes they do. They write Tactics articles about it in their spike magazines. Because all the games Tactics stem from risk mitigation and clock management |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Aug 15, 2025 - 10:18 |
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| Garion wrote: | Stalling is blood bowl...clock management and risk mitigation is the whole game. Its where all Tactics stem from. When someone complains about stalling I assume they suck at the game and they have a very shallow understanding of it and the tactical depth this game offers.
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That is a bit strong, though.
Many people do prefer to play differently for a lot of different reasons.
I don't think that the game was intended to be taken as seriously as some take it.
For me, stalling fits the fluff. If we can sit at the goal line and beat the crap out of the opposition until the last turn, certainly we'll do that. 
How often does excessive stalling "ruin" the game anyway? |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 15, 2025 - 10:29 |
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| koadah wrote: |
How often does excessive stalling "ruin" the game anyway? |
Exactly, this^ I've yet to see it spoil a game...
| koadah wrote: |
That is a bit strong, though.
Many people do prefer to play differently for a lot of different reasons.
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I really don't think it is strong. I think it doesn't push the point enough. I know it reads as strong. But it really is what made and continues to make this game so popular. Its why it has so many websites dedicated to strategy, probability, set ups, OTT strategy, anti ott strategy and so on...
I understand there are some people that just like rolling dice. But the reason the game stands the test of time is the depth it provides. That every turn is unique puzzle to unlock...
Take Dreadball for example. a game that came out to fanfare and people believed this would replace Blood bowl as the strategy Fantasy Football game. The problem is it was devoid of strategy. You basically just run up the pitch and take turns in shooting, whoever fails to score loses... It's so bereft of depth and has died out as a result. the reason the game is so lacking in tactics is because clock management isn't a thing. Once you learn to play it is just rolling dice. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Aug 15, 2025 - 10:45 |
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| Garion wrote: | | koadah wrote: |
How often does excessive stalling "ruin" the game anyway? |
Exactly, this^ I've yet to see it spoil a game... |
That is subjective, though.
Some might say that a game can only be ruined by the opponent behaving like an utter, *******, ****.
But even then, some enjoyment can could be had by winding them up even further. Which I suppose could make you the ****.  |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 11:06 |
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| Zelmor wrote: | | Go play chess and complain about how castling is stalling and shouldn't be practiced. |
I already play Chess variants (not standard Chess, too boring and repetitive) but thanks for the oh-so-original-play-Chess suggestion.
About stalling, to get back to topic: there is strategy when you stall and your opponent can actually thwart it.
If your opponent can't stop the stalling due to external things, such as excessive KOs/Casualties or because the team has too many Guards/high ST players etc. I don't think there is deep strategy involved.
You don't like dice rolling in Dreadball, and I can agree with that, but consider that many stallings come from dice rolling and removals.
The dynamic stalling requires taking risks, so there is some coach's skill involved.
In static cage stalling there might be, or not, coach's skill and strategy involved.
I played Elven Union many times vs Undead and the simple fact that Undead have 2+ Mighty Blows it's just too good vs AV 8+. Once the Casualties start to happen, it's very very hard to stop a stalling, even by actively trying to cage dive and sack with 1d or 2d uphill blocks.
That's just an example that came to mind, from actual games, not theorycraft.
To make the things worse, punting is riskier than before.
Sometimes I have the impression that people advocating stalling like the ultimate coach's skill don't play a lot, because they seem unaware of these common scenarios. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 15, 2025; edited 5 times in total |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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Aug 15, 2025 - 11:06 |
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| Garion wrote: | | (...) While we are fixing the kick off table. Time Out should also be removed, giving an extra turn at the end of the game completely breaks the game sometimes. Sometimes you have a hard fought win or draw and set up a nice anti OTT set up,, but your opponent gets an extra turn and it invalidates everything. Its personally the kick off result i hate the most. |
Some events on the kickoff table enrich the game (especially when we take them into account in our set up) but it is true that they sometimes weigh very heavily (too heavily ?) on games.
This is the case for Time Out on turn 8 or 16. It is also the case for Blitz with a short kick in wide zone, for example.
Perhaps it would be possible to introduce a little risk management in the kickoff table. I have already tried to design a Black Jack style kickoff table, in which each coach can roll one more die and has a punitive result (offensive or defensive) if they exceed the maximum result but that would be a very big change to the game. It would eliminate a great classic like "10, Blitz!".
A less disruptive solution would be to allow coaches to use team re-rolls on the kickoff table :
"Every kick-off is a unique event. Almost everything can happen, and often does ! Immediatly after kick has deviated, whilst the ball is still high in the air, dice are rolled on the kick-off event table. The coach of the kicking team is the first to roll 1D6. They can use a team re-roll to re-roll it if they want to. Then, the coach of the receiving team roll 1D6. They also can use a team re-roll to re-roll it if they want to. Both D6 are then added together and kick-off event table is consulted."
Teams wanting a Blitz or a Time-Out could use team re-rolls to increase the probability to play these events. And opponent teams could use team re-rolls to try to escape these events.
2 examples :
Turn 1, short kick in wide zone. If the coach of the kicking team rolls 1, 2 or 3, they can use a team re-roll in order to have a 4+ and have 1/6 to have a Blitz.
Turn 16, if the coach of the kicking team rolls 1 or 2, they can use a team re-roll in order to have a 3+ and be sure to escape Time-out. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 15, 2025 - 11:17 |
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| sebco wrote: |
Turn 16, if the coach of the kicking team rolls 1 or 2, they can use a team re-roll in order to have a 3+ and be sure to escape Time-out. |
Just one observation: would not make more sense to do something like Arguing the Call or using a bribe (with Bribery and Corruption too), since it's the Referee deciding to move the clock back?
The rr should be related to players' actions, in my opinion.
About Time Out, another idea came to mind:
you could select a player to make an Action during the extra turn, then roll a D8: on a 2+, the player can make the Action. Then you can try to act with another player, rolling again a D8: this time you need a 3+, and so on.
That would make quite exciting to play the Time Out (because you don't know in advance how many players you will be able to use) and there would a certain coach's skill involved in prioritizing the players' who make an Action.
There is some realism too, because the incremental D8 represents the time running out.
edit. I guess it should be better like so:
the first player can make an Action (no D8 roll required);
the second player on a 2+, the third on a 3+ and so on.
This should be balanced, because at least 1 player could make an Action for sure. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 15, 2025 - 11:41 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
About stalling, to get back to topic: there is strategy when you stall and your opponent can actually thwart it.
If your opponent can't stop the stalling due to external things, such as excessive KOs/Casualties or because the team has too many Guards/high ST players etc. I don't think there is deep strategy involved.
You don't like dice rolling in Dreadball, and I can agree with that, but consider that many stallings come from dice rolling and removals.
The dynamic stalling requires taking risks, so there is some coach's skill involved.
In static cage stalling there might be, or not, coach's skill and strategy involved.
I played Elven Union many times vs Undead and the simple fact that Undead have 2+ Mighty Blows it's just too good vs AV 8+. Once the Casualties start to happen, it's very very hard to stop a stalling, even by actively trying to cage dive and sack with 1d or 2d uphill blocks.
That's just an example that came to mind, from actual games, not theorycraft.
To make the things worse, punting is riskier than before.
Sometimes I have the impression that people advocating stalling like the ultimate coach's skill don't play a lot, because they seem unaware of these common scenarios. |
everyone is aware of the scenarios you describe... And no one is disagreeing that they do happen. As I have said MANY times now extreme tilt can be annoying, and when it happens yes games can unfold in the way you describe, though not with the frequency you imply... However the rules you are advocating don't address the occurrence on the pitch. Yes making injury more unlikely will impact every race (though it will buff the tier 1 teams most), the problem is extreme tilt will still happen, and you've done nothing to protect teams mid drive... Which is where the problem is... If you are looking to fix the dreaded death spiral, you need a rubber band mechanic mid drive... Not rules that just make Tier 1 teams even better.
I also think you are over stating the frequency this scenario occurs, with statements such as many stallings occur due to removals. And also stating MB is too powerful vs Av8+.. Remember on average there are only 2 Cas a game per team. 2 Cas in 16 turns... Yes there are Kos as well and yeah it can be brutal at times we've all seen extreme tilt. But just because you have examples doesn't mean it's a fact in the majority of games. You need to look at average cas in specific match ups, all the data is there. But more than that you need to remember that this game has a rock paper scissor element to it as well. Certain teams are stronger counters vs other races, and some of this is by design. |
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Last edited by Garion on Aug 15, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 15, 2025 - 11:44 |
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| sebco wrote: | | Kick off Black Jack idea... |
Interesting thought, but I think Dakkas idea, which of limiting the number of players that can be activated in Time-out extra turn is the right direction. The kick off table should have some impact, but it needs to be toned down. One of the best things about the current edition is the Kick off Table was improved. Though there are still some outliers that add far too much tilt to the game as you say |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 11:50 |
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If a cage were less safe, you could try more things.
With more players left on the pitch, you can slow down a cage.
Both are facts.
2 Casualties don't tell the whole story, KOs play a big role too.
Then, if I point out that a cage can't be stopped, it's a rock paper scissor design.
Basically, if you play bad, it's your fault, if you play well and still you get rekt by Mighty Blow it's a "finely designed rock paper scissor mechanic".
It does look to me just trying to hide under the carpet blatant game flaws.
When you waste 1 hour locked into a game where you can't defend vs a cage, being too outnumbered to actively play the game, the "rock scissor paper" won't make the experience less frustrating.
It would be better to avoid at all, or reduce at least, the scenarios where a team is hopeless.
To quote you again, it's a NPE, and it could be mitigated. |
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