koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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 Posted:
Aug 15, 2025 - 11:58 |
 
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| Garion wrote: |
I really don't think it is strong. I think it doesn't push the point enough. I know it reads as strong. But it really is what made and continues to make this game so popular. Its why it has so many websites dedicated to strategy, probability, set ups, OTT strategy, anti ott strategy and so on...
I understand there are some people that just like rolling dice. But the reason the game stands the test of time is the depth it provides. That every turn is unique puzzle to unlock...
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The bit I thought strong was...
| Garion wrote: | | When someone complains about stalling I assume they suck at the game and they have a very shallow understanding of it and the tactical depth this game offers. |
People can understand the game but still want to see more action and TDs.
Some people have limited time to play. If the early cas are heavy, it may feel that they have spent their time but haven't really had a game. But there may not be time for another. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 15, 2025 - 12:07 |
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You're not listening Matt...
Also you are straw manning what people say. You are changing the wording of what people have typed and exaggerating them to make them read differently to their intent. Please don't do this...
Back to the point though, You're not listening Matt...
I am agreeing extreme Tilt could do with a fix. Must be the 10th time I've said this now... But even with the changes you are proposing there will still be extreme tilt and your rules changes do nothing to protect against it mid drive. Which is where the problem you are talking about exists... You have identified a problem and yes it does exist. We disagree about it's frequency... But regardless of its frequency it is there. The only solution is a rubber band mechanic. And you have not suggested one. You have suggested rules that only come into play post drive, when they aren't needed. Or in the case of making case much more unlikely you are buffing tier 1 teams exponentially more than the tier 3 teams.
As for the cage - the problem with nerfing the cage via your proposal is it is too much. You have given it 2 nerfs. I'd suggest you test just 1 or the other... However I think both are far too big and make Elf teams too good. And... like nearly all your biggest changes, they hurt the tier 3 teams the most.
| koadah wrote: | | Some people have limited time to play. If the early cas are heavy, it may feel that they have spent their time but haven't really had a game. But there may not be time for another. |
yep agreed with that. This is my point... The extreme tilt does occur. But it's a mid drive problem. Not an end of drive problem. An in drive rubber band mechanic is needed. |
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Last edited by Garion on Aug 15, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 12:08 |
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Yes, it's not even a matter of winning the game, but being able to play decently a game (i.e. by moving players on the pitch, feeling to be an active player, rather than a spectator).
I enjoyed games where I lost if until the end (or for most of the game) I had been able to try something.
When I can't even try to do something the experience is super boring and a waste of time.
To the point that I stopped defending at all on my Half, because it was detrimental to do so.
Better to save the rrs and abuse 1TTD/hope for Time Out. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 15, 2025 - 12:10 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Yes, it's not even a matter of winning the game, but being able to play decently a game (i.e. by moving players on the pitch, feeling to be an active player, rather than a spectator).
I enjoyed games where I lost if until the end (or for most of the game) I had been able to try something.
When I can't even try to do something the experience is super boring and a waste of time.
To the point that I stopped defending at all on my Half, because it was detrimental to do so.
Better to save the rrs and abuse 1TTD/hope for Time Out. |
Yes we are in agreement... This is where the game is best. And extreme tilt is a bore. But you aren't addressing it... |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 15, 2025 - 12:14 |
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| Garion wrote: | | said this now... But even with the changes you are proposing there will still be extreme tilt and your rules changes do nothing to protect against it mid drive. |
My rules make KO and Casualties less likely, thus, mid drive, on average there will be more players left to try something/slow down a cage.
Even if the cage is not stopped, more players left to play the 2nd Half make that part of the game more enjoyable.
Still better than the current situation. More players on pitch, less tilt. Simple like that. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 15, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 15, 2025 - 12:18 |
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| Garion wrote: |
| koadah wrote: | | Some people have limited time to play. If the early cas are heavy, it may feel that they have spent their time but haven't really had a game. But there may not be time for another. |
yep agreed with that. This is my point... The extreme tilt does occur. But it's a mid drive problem. Not an end of drive problem. An in drive rubber band mechanic is needed. |
I'm just suggesting why some don't like it.
I'm not saying that anything is "needed". 
But, I rarely play vanilla rules so I guess I wouldn't know.  |
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Summer Sprint Season. 1st Aug - 14th Sept. Open/Gamefinder play |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 15, 2025 - 16:34 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | said this now... But even with the changes you are proposing there will still be extreme tilt and your rules changes do nothing to protect against it mid drive. |
My rules make KO and Casualties less likely, thus, mid drive, on average there will be more players left to try something/slow down a cage.
Even if the cage is not stopped, more players left to play the 2nd Half make that part of the game more enjoyable.
Still better than the current situation. More players on pitch, less tilt. Simple like that. |
It's not as simple as that though. I understand it will lessen tilt which in is self would be nice. But it's more complicated than that.
You need to produce a Cas table: https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodbowl/comments/i9amkv/blocking_injury_odds_with_mb_1_mb_2_and_claw_only/#lightbox
The problem you will find is that your idea seriously limits the amount of damage certain teams will suffer, and while weaker teams will be buffed in that they suffer less KO+, they just wont be able to damage the higher AV teams... It would require a huge rebalancing of the rosters. A big re-design in all the rosters. Especially the Tier 1 teams, because you are buffing them heavily. While the lower TV teams don't gain the same benefits from your rule change...
Also extreme tilt will still happen, and it will still annoy you, because you haven't done anything to stop it happening mid drive. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 16:55 |
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Do weaker teams need to damage higher AV teams? Elves can score without removing any player, in theory.
Without match-up context I find that a big vague.
About rebalancing of the rosters: currently rosters are not perfectly balanced. What's this sudden concern for balance, when teams have tiers and some teams are weaker than other ones?
Would nerfing the damage unbalance the game heavily? I don't think so.
It would change some match-ups, but I don't think the game would change a lot.
Unless you are interested in a removal-based gameplay over a tactical-based gameplay, of course.
Elves suffering fewer KOs is a boost to them.
They currently don't outbash bash and hybrid teams, while the opposite is very true.
It's better for Elves to suffer fewer KO than getting more CAS vs a bash team. Elves can defend better with a column defence if they are not outnumbered too fast, and can score quite easily, if they really want, with or without dealing damage to the opponent team.
About tilt happening mid drive: I repeat that tilting due to lack of players would be less likely, with a nerfed Injury table. It doesn't need a demonstration.
Assuming that the nerfed Injury table is not effective enough and KOs/CAS still happen during Half 1, the filler Journeymen will ensure to start the 2nd Half 11 vs 11. This, against, is an anti-tilt measure. During 2nd Half drive the Journeymen and rostered players can be removed from the pitch, they are not immortal, so removals would still have an effect on a drive. I don't see all these issues you say.
A full anti-tilt measure would require to replace a player as soon as they are removed from the pitch, but this would be too much and gamebreaking.
I think my nerfed Injury table and filler Journeymen are quite decent anti-tilt measures, still leaving the possibility to remove players during drives, while, on the other hand, starting 2nd Half 11 vs 11 surely.
No matter the Injury table you use and how many reserves you have, some players could still be out before 2nd Half start. That's unbalancing and tilting too. Hence the filler Journeymen.
I find everything I proposed logical to counter tilt.
If there may be concerns about some match-ups, for sure mirror matches would be more balanced than now.
If I imagine Orcs vs Orcs, Dwarfs vs Dwarfs, Elves vs Elves or Humans vs Humans, often the luck of the removals makes a huge difference in mirror matches.
That kind of randomness would be mitigated big time. |
Last edited by MattDakka on Aug 15, 2025; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 15, 2025 - 17:26 |
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Yeah some of the weaker teams do need to do damage ideally. Like Goblins for example..also elves are not weaker teams...
One of Goblins game plans is to cause damage to key opposing players to even the playing field somewhat. Attrition is part of the game and statistically speaking benefits the team that has performed better in the blocking battle. Though obviously there are many variables here, such as av and skills and so on
As for balance this isn't a sudden concern. Game balance always has to be a consideration when changing such a core rule... the rosters are reasonably well balanced within their design parameters and the tiers the teams are meant to sit in.
Some aren't in the tier they're meant to be, and this edition is certainly not as balanced as the previous edition in the 1000 to 1600 bracket due to over turned low tv teams and game breaking high TV teams ( high for this edition). But the problem you are causing with this injury change is it makes the best teams much better. The weaker teams are lovers.
Maybe it's coz you rarely play with Tier 3 teams you don't see it. When you see how unlikely a cas is on an av10+ player or av9+ blodge elf you will see you've gone too far..
Maybe if you bring back dp+2 then you could get away with your new table. But as it is now. You've made injury much more unlikely... you need to run the numbers |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 15, 2025 - 17:30 |
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| Garion wrote: |
As for balance this isn't a sudden concern. Game balance always has to be a consideration when changing such a core rule... the rosters are reasonably well balanced within their design parameters and the tiers the teams are meant to sit in. |
Maybe it's me, but I find Norse, Amazons and Undead very good, if not too good, in this ruleset. I find them very often in the Box, I don't think it's a coincidence.
| Garion wrote: |
Maybe if you bring back dp+2 then you could get away with your new table. But as it is now. You've made injury much more unlikely... you need to run the numbers |
I considered changing Dirty Player to +2 in my rules.
It may seem too good but my Injury table is a normal Injury Table with -1 to the roll, so Dirty Player +2 in my rules would be the same as now.
On top of that, my Foul spotting rule increases correlation between damage dealt and ejection chance, so yes, it could be an idea. I added Dirty Player +2 to my house rules.
About Goblin roster: I'd love 0-2 rostered bribes, as an aside. That would be a buff too. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 15, 2025 - 19:07 |
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No argument there..all data shows both those races are OP. They have breached the sacred 60% win ratio and its even worse(higher) at low tv. Too many of the rules changes this edition have fed into min maxing those races. Further their Rosters were both buffed... very poor from the designers...
As for dp+2 ... it deffo wouldn't be too good in your rules. It would be necessary to offset all the other rules you've made that make the game softer.
And it wouldn't balance the books coz sending off is do likely with 2+ because you'd more often be causing KO + So they wouldn't last long |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 19:13 |
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What about this version? Dirty Player: you can add +2 to either AV or Injury roll, or +1 to both AV and Injury rolls.
This is a more flexible and slightly stronger Dirty Player rule.
By the way, with Sneaky Git my fouling is not that bad and the combo DP/SG is not OP.
You are less often ejected with the Sneaky Git rr if you are spotted:
spotting chance after a foul
Cas 3+ = 66.67%, with Sneaky Git 44.44%
KO 4+ = 50%, or 25% with Sneaky Git
Stun 5+ = 33.3%, or 11.11 % with Sneaky Git
No break 6+ = 16.67%, or 2.77% with Sneaky Git
being spotted for a CAS with SG is a bit less than 1/2
being spotted for a KO with SG is 1/4
being spotted for a Stun with SG is 1/9
being spotted for no break with SG is 1/36
Argue the call is allowed too. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 20:35 |
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What about bringing back IGMEOY. However, if certain stalling criteria is met. The ref ignores the fouling team as he's too preoccupied with the stalling team and the fans getting restless due to stalling.
IGMEOY was a beautiful rule. Sadly, it was hard to admin on TT. For online gaming, it was real classy.
For TT, I used to have a house rule variation, that was good for anti-stalling. Has anybody seen the alien movie comedy 'Paul'? During that movie there's a running gag about a girl on the front of the comic book with 3 ......hmmmm let's call them 'finches', but swap finches with another variety of garden bird.
Anyway, instead of 3....finches, have 3 balls! Each team starts the half with 1 ball in possession and the other one is kicked. You 'could' stall with 1 ball but get scored against with the other 2. Also, stalling with more than 1 ball is quite difficult and double the jeopardy!
All that said, is stalling that 'anti-fluffy'? I guess from a certain perspective and because the game is turn based, it is. However, if you think of something like a Khorne team (a real Khorne team, not the Cyanide variety) there fluff is all about killing; scoring with the ball is coincidental. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 20:48 |
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IGMEOY doesn't have correlation between damage dealt with a foul and ejection chance.
It has correlation only between the amount of fouls and the ejection chance.
If there is retaliation the IGMEOY resets.
About balls: I have a very old Citadel Journal article with house rules for weird balls, such as floating balls, teleporting balls, spiked balls, iron balls, ball squigs, exploding balls, magnetic balls, multiple balls etc.
If you were interested I could write them in another thread. One of the ideas I had to make stalling harder features a teleporting ball. Adds some risks and makes static stalling less static. |
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Chingis
Joined: Jul 09, 2007
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Aug 15, 2025 - 21:30 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | All that said, is stalling that 'anti-fluffy'? I guess from a certain perspective and because the game is turn based, it is. However, if you think of something like a Khorne team (a real Khorne team, not the Cyanide variety) there fluff is all about killing; scoring with the ball is coincidental. |
It's absolutely not anti-fluffy! if you have an team of orcs or dwarves or chaos warriors or whatever, then doing so is completely "Blood Bowl-y" behaviour. They're supposed to choose to hold the ball and just try to flatten the enemy players instead.
The issue comes if people playing elf teams feel like they are incentivised to habitually stall. That's not so fluffy. And even for the brutal teams, it's supposed to be a choice that they make to do so: it ought to feel like the team is realistically sacrificing some other option, even if stalling is ultimately the best choice for that particular team.
Garion's assertion that clock management is Blood Bowl is the problem. Blood Bowl ideally (in terms of game experience and fluff alignment) is a game about scoring touchdowns and beating up the opponents, where stalling is one possible method in the toolbox to achieve that, a good choice in some scenarios and for some teams. It shouldn't be a game fundamentally about clock management, where scoring touchdowns and beating up opponents are just means to that end.
In essence if there's a problem it's not with there being reasons to stall, it's the absence of sufficient reasons not to stall. |
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