Tinkywinky
Joined: Aug 25, 2003
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 Posted:
Feb 01, 2006 - 20:10 |
 
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For the major Swedish leagues we have used these categories for which teams are to be allowed in (we don't want bashy teams only):
FAST/AGILE
Dark elves - balanced
Elf
High elf
Skaven - balanced
Wood elf
HYBRID
Amazon - bashy
Human - balanced
Lizardmen - balanced
Necromantic - balanced
Norse - bashy (although they are plain bad at both moving the ball and bashing)
Undead - bashy
Vampire - (bad too..)
BASH
Chaos
Chaos dwarf
Dwarf
Khemri
Nurgle
Ogre
Orc - balanced (if goblin catchers are used)
The "suffixes" were added by me now.
Amazons are definitely more bashy than agile. Compare how they play with humans and you realise that they are slower but better at the bashing game. Most good coaches doesn't even bother with throwers for an amazon team until they have 13-14 players. Without fast players to catch the ball you have no use for throwers. I would call them BALANCED-bashy. Lizards are most definitely not bashy after tr 150 or so. If you think "But they have seven strong players with S-access", then try to find a single lizard team with more than 4 guard and MB. |
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Telcontar
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2006 - 20:17 |
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We had the same discussion in one of my tourny in U cose a lot of Agile teams got beaten up we decided stop allowing new bashy teams to enter as long as there are fewer agile teams.
so with 5 agile teams only 5 basher teams were allowed but any number of balanced teams.
we made a list of all non stunty races and awarded bashy points for ST+ AV9 ST Access and likely to take bashy Mutation
and subtracted the number of points for beeing agile AG+ MV+ A Access and likely to take agile Mutation
When having st- Av7 etc we subtracted bashy points and vice versa
any big guy in team got 3 bashy points and -3 Agile points
We didnt consider starting skills
We gave points for teams with full roster having maxed out the Positionals and filled the rest with linos (yes 12 Ogres)
that was the final result we considered any team over 20 points bashy and below -20 points agile rest is balanced
Bashy guys
Ogre-------------60
Dwarves--------52
Nurgle-----------44
Chaos-----------40
Khemri----------38
Orc---------------36
Chaos Dwarves-32
Balanced dudes
Necro---------18
Undead-------14
Vampire____ -4
Lizzies _____-6
Norse______-7
Humans____-10
Zons_______-14
Agile sissies
Delfen_____-40
Skaven____-40
HElfen_____-42
Elfen______-52
Welfen_____-58 |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2006 - 20:25 |
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| Mully wrote: | | Lizards are balanced and not bashy IMO. Half the team can't even get block without doubles, the other half usually dont get mighty blow until 31 SPPs since many coaches start with block and break tackle as the 1st 2 skills. |
So?....a lot of chaos teams start off with block and something else, before picking up MB....that doesn't make them any less bashy....
| TinkyWinky wrote: | | If you think "But they have seven strong players with S-access", then try to find a single lizard team with more than 4 guard and MB. |
i fail to see how that's a valid argument, since dorfs are really the only team that go for mass guard/mb, and potentially orcs....chaos, which i think everyone agrees are bashy, don't even do it...(ogres aren't a real team so neener!)
--j |
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Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2006 - 21:49 |
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This is what we decided in the SWL
Rock (Bash):
Dwarf
Chaos Dwarf
Orc
Chaos
Khemri
Undead (mostly due to one team with half a dozen DPs, including a ghoul)
Scissor (Medium):
Lizardmen
Necromantic
Norse
Skaven
Nurgles
Paper (Soft):
Dark Elf
High Elf
Wood Elf
Elf
Amazon
Human (I think these were just recently moved across from Medium to even things up a little)
Dynamite (These teams suck and we won't make anyone use them though you still can if you want):
Ogre
Vampire
Goblin
Halfling
As far as the lizard thing goes, when was the last time you played with a lizard (not against) team shadow? These guys need guard very very badly to face up against dorfs, orcs, and chaos dorfs especially. I like to think after playing 90 games with my lizards in the SWL I have some kind of idea of how they go and believe me, they get outbashed regularly. Even the bloody elves dance around the saurus and take out the skinks (we have to field at least 4 str 2 stunties, remember?). No easy access to block on the skinks makes them very vulnerable and no easy access to DP (sure you could take it on a saurus but you'd have to be a moron) means you get fouled with near impunity, while all those block/tackle/guard/mb dorfs and chaos dorfs pound the crap out of both your saurus and your skinks if they can catch them. |
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shadow46x2
Joined: Nov 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 01, 2006 - 21:59 |
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| Faulcon wrote: | | As far as the lizard thing goes, when was the last time you played with a lizard (not against) team shadow? These guys need guard very very badly to face up against dorfs, orcs, and chaos dorfs especially. I like to think after playing 90 games with my lizards in the SWL I have some kind of idea of how they go and believe me, they get outbashed regularly. Even the bloody elves dance around the saurus and take out the skinks (we have to field at least 4 str 2 stunties, remember?). No easy access to block on the skinks makes them very vulnerable and no easy access to DP (sure you could take it on a saurus but you'd have to be a moron) means you get fouled with near impunity, while all those block/tackle/guard/mb dorfs and chaos dorfs pound the crap out of both your saurus and your skinks if they can catch them. |
meh....my entire argument is that lizards are *NOT* agile..period......balanced....i can accept balanced, due to them being able to move the ball around easier than other teams, but agile?...no...never...agile almost insinuates a passing game, a dodgy game, etc etc, whatever you want to call it....suarii can't dodge, and skinks can't pass(well, they can, but it's hella tough)...balanced i can accept, and yes i do think they're more bashy than balanced.....
but most certainly *NOT* agile by any means...
--j |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 00:23 |
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Basing on the average cas on my woodies (they have played 280 games so an average of 13 games against each race):
BASHY
Goblin (4)
Khemri (3.9)
Dwarf (3.4)
Ogre (3.3)
Amazon (3.1)
Halfling (3.1)
Skaven (3.1)
Undead (3.1)
BALANCED
Norse (3)
Chaos Dwarf (2.9)
Nurgle's Rotters (2.9)
Orc (2.9)
Lizardmen (2.6)
Necromantic (2.5)
AGILE
Chaos (2.4)
Human (2.2)
Vampire (2.1)
Dark Elf (2.1)
Elf (2)
Wood Elf (2)
High Elf (1.8) |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 00:31 |
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That's pointless Rjessiej
1- you didn't play 13 games against any race (which would be hardly enough anyway), so your stats are totally insufficient for at leas t 50% of the races.
2- It all depends on how you pick your games (not that you cherrypick). I guess you avoid tackle-MB humans or Chaos for example... while you might challenge an all guard chaos, who doesn't care to have tackle. So it's not much of a "general" stat.
that's some interesting personal data, but a bit pointless here.
No offence. |
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ozjesting
Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 01:18 |
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Long Live "Paper, Scissor, Rock!"
Who's idea was that anyway???
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Say GO AWAY to CuddleBunny! |
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Laviak
Joined: Jul 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 01:28 |
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There are all sorts of ways of categorising the races:
- Toughness (fragile, average, tough)
- Bashiness (pansy, average, nasty)
- Speed (slow, average, fast)
- Agility (clumsy, average, agile)
In my opinion, the bashy / average / agile meter isn't really enough to categorise the races available in BB.
There is also (of course) a fair bit of variation depending on things like the skills a particular coach likes to take, and how high the TR is. |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 01:57 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | That's pointless Rjessiej
1- you didn't play 13 games against any race (which would be hardly enough anyway), so your stats are totally insufficient for at leas t 50% of the races.
2- It all depends on how you pick your games (not that you cherrypick). I guess you avoid tackle-MB humans or Chaos for example... while you might challenge an all guard chaos, who doesn't care to have tackle. So it's not much of a "general" stat.
that's some interesting personal data, but a bit pointless here.
No offence. |
I don't think it's completely pointless Jan.
1- I agree that basing this kinda stats on less then 10 games is a bit pointless but i did find it interesting enough to add them. 
2- I usually don't avoid any type of team unless it's clearly an unfair match-up. It is certainly not meant as a completely general stat but i think it does show some unexpected positions which might be interesting enough for some discussion. 
No offence taken. |
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Rijssiej
Joined: Jan 04, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 02:08 |
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| Laviak wrote: | There are all sorts of ways of categorising the races:
- Toughness (fragile, average, tough)
- Bashiness (pansy, average, nasty)
- Speed (slow, average, fast)
- Agility (clumsy, average, agile)
In my opinion, the bashy / average / agile meter isn't really enough to categorise the races available in BB.
There is also (of course) a fair bit of variation depending on things like the skills a particular coach likes to take, and how high the TR is. |
There sure are different sorts of categorising teams but they are not independent. In general the bashiness and the agility are related (high ST, low AG) as are the speed and toughness (high MA, low AV). Off coarse this doesn't fit all teams but bashers usually need to compensate their lack of agility by bashing some opponents out. |
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OldBugman
Joined: May 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 02:37 |
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hahah rijssiej has gobbos at the top of the list..
All HAIL the new BASHERS |
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Faulcon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 03:52 |
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God no, lizards are in no way agile, nobody here has even tried to pass that one off and if anyone has in the past tell me who so I can laugh at them. The very thought is even more hilarious than people saying they're bashy. What they are (and yes I'll probably argue this point endlessly with people who disagree) is quite well balanced, some great strong players (but not enough to dominate a match) and some fast dodgers (but not fast or agile enough to break a game open). |
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Longshanks
Joined: Feb 02, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 02, 2006 - 04:06 |
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| Quote: | | gobbos at the top of the list |
WARNING! This may turn into a fouling thread. Continue at your peril.
Gobbos are up there clearly cause they foul! So if you're a fouling team, are you agile or bashy? Or maybe balanced?
It's academic really but as I see it, the way a team is categorised ought to be on the basis of the role of the teams lineman (who are the most populous after all) and what skills they can take. So if they can take ST skills, they're bashy, AG skills they're agile. Neither, they're balanced.
Sure that may be a flawed argument, but at least it'd be easy to work out !
Except for Lizzies of course! Are Saurus the lineman, or Skinks? Just goes to show what a paradoxical team they are. |
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Longshanks
Joined: Feb 02, 2005
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Feb 02, 2006 - 04:10 |
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Afterthought. Maybe "Lineman" is wrong. Think more of the teams iconic players. Chaos Dwarves on a CD team, Mummies on Khemri etc.
Of course then we could have an argument about what positional is the most iconic for each team. Hmm - saurus or skinks. Which to choose..... |
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