| Poll |
| Should your always use your freedom of speech |
| Yes freedom of sppech is so importent that one should alwayes speek ones mind. |
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61% |
[ 132 ] |
| No you should not use your freedom of speech to insult people. |
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38% |
[ 82 ] |
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| Total Votes : 214 |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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 Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:01 |
 
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| HollowOne wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: | | This is a (I invoke freedom of speech) stupid comment. |
It may be absurd, but what do you think the riots are actually about? Some cartoons that took months to actually brew up this reaction? No, look at the bigger picture; this is the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. |
That's not the point. Def909 seemed to justify the acts in the embassies. I don't and I hate the "US are evil, so every reaction is proportionate" comments.
It is called escalation, and I find it dangerous. |
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Buur
Joined: Apr 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:02 |
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| Quote: |
It may be absurd, but what do you think the riots are actually about? Some cartoons that took months to actually brew up this reaction? No, look at the bigger picture; this is the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.
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Yes this is the case too, its all a part of the big, Moslems vs the west conflict... But that should should have made people consider their words ever more.... unles you want war.
-Buur |
_________________
For most people, reason is nothing but their own believes. |
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Gitzbang
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:02 |
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Freedom necessarily stops at the doorstep of your neighbour ... no idea of freedom could ever allow for insult and harm against someone else. So, while i don't support the reaction from the muslim community, i don't think those cartoons were in any way covered by the freedom of speech. |
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Loki_on_NAF
Joined: Jun 07, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:06 |
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I agree with freedom of speech in the sense that you should be allowed to put your genuinely held beliefs into a public forum for digestion. There is always the choice of how you put that message forward though. If you are talking and all you do is swear and insult all you will achieve is damaging the message that you are trying to put forward. I have not seen the cartoon so cannot comment on that but maybe the cartoon(s) were not the best medium for the papers comments. |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:07 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | That's not the point. Def909 seemed to justify the acts in the embassies. I don't and I hate the "US are evil, so every reaction is proportionate" comments.
It is called escalation, and I find it dangerous. |
It is my point. The West have been encroaching on the Middle East with military, colonialist and cultural imperialism since the fall of the Ottoman Empire (see history of Iraq, Palestine, etc.). You're right, burning embassies is not justified; but if you don't understand why they're burning those embassies, there's not much you can do about it. It's all well and good to say "escalation is bad", but it is the West that has been meddling with the Middle East -- in various ways -- for the past 90 years (and longer, really...). |
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A censor is a man who knows more than he thinks you ought to. - Granville Hicks
Last edited by HollowOne on %b %05, %2006 - %13:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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def909
Joined: Oct 25, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:09 |
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| JanMattys wrote: | | HollowOne wrote: | | JanMattys wrote: | | This is a (I invoke freedom of speech) stupid comment. |
It may be absurd, but what do you think the riots are actually about? Some cartoons that took months to actually brew up this reaction? No, look at the bigger picture; this is the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. |
That's not the point. Def909 seemed to justify the acts in the embassies. I don't and I hate the "US are evil, so every reaction is proportionate" comments.
It is called escalation, and I find it dangerous. |
Maybe my post was too short: I didn´t mean to justify the burning of an embassy, it´s merely how the people who actually burned it may have thought. It´s not that every reaction is proportionate, but I think many muslims are just afraid they might be bombed next. |
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Loki_on_NAF
Joined: Jun 07, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:09 |
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This is not confined to the middle east, Indonesia also had issues with this |
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Emphasy
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:11 |
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Considering that here in Denmark we make fun of every religion, our queen, our primeminister etc i see these drawings as a way on the integration saying "we see you as a part of denmark, and will treat you as we treat everyone else in this god forsaken country" though the drawings perhaps was a bit harsh i still think the reaction to this is WAAAAAAAAAAAY to much. It's the same freedom of speech that allowed the ultra extremists Hizb-Ut-Tahrir to preach their hate towards western countries here in Denmark, but i guess it was ok when it was about killing every non believer of Muhammed... makes me wonder...
Respect should go both ways, but as so many times before a lot of extreme muslims only see it their way...
Now dont go think of me as a racist, im half kurdish myself and know well of both sides of the religions, and it hurts my feelings to see something good (religion) being used to do so much harm every time the chance occure from all sides, hindu, christians, muslims etc... |
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Buur
Joined: Apr 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:17 |
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| Quote: |
Considering that here in Denmark we make fun of every religion, our queen, our primeminister etc i see these drawings as a way on the integration saying "we see you as a part of denmark, and will treat you as we treat everyone else in this god forsaken country"
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Emphasy i am pretty sure that "Jyllands Posten" verent vellcoming the moslem communty into denmark with those drawings...
They vere ment as: if you cant stand this, bugger off!
-Buur |
_________________
For most people, reason is nothing but their own believes. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:20 |
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Everyone is insulted by something. Your freedom ends where someone else's space begins, but not when it comes to voicing your opinion. If you cannot say anything that might offend someone, you can say nothing at all.
Let them say that homosexuals are lower than dogs. Let them call my girlfriend a christian whore. Let them act the way that all religious zealots do, the way right-wing political groups do. Let them act like fanatics. It's their right, it's their opinion, they're allowed to say it. But as soon as they act upon it, as soon as they turn word into deed, as soon as they say that these people deserve to be killed, they have overstepped their boundaries, they are moving from insult to harm and that is unacceptable.
I am not a Muslim. I should not be bound by the tenets of their faith. If I wish to create a visual portrayal of Muhammad I should be allowed to do so, just as I should be allowed to accept blood-transfusions (I am not a Jehova's Witness), eat beef (I am not a Hindu), eat pork (I am neither a Muslim nor a Jew) and cut my hair (I am not a Sikh). Just as they should be allowed to condemn me for the idolator that I am, as long as they do not declare that I should be killed for my sins/crimes. |
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Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day; set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. |
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RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:21 |
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They did torch the Swedish and Norwegian embassies as well, they where in the same building and atleast the Sweedes  are completely innocent about this.
I just feel that there is alot more to this then some cartoons publsihed in some obscure Danish newspaper. How come the people Pakistan and Sudan is demontrating about this, can they even find Denmark on a map?
This is about religious leaders telling their followers alot of bs and making a hen out of a feather. 99.99% of those demonstrating have never seen the pictures and if they had not been told about it from some Iman who got to hear about it in some chatroom for pissed of moslems.
I agree that the moslems have alot of grief with the west but they did make a formal coplaint and got an apology from the newspaper and an informal one from the Danish goverment. But now they are just throwing gas on the fire and using this momentum in political anger and it will just lead to more hatred from both sides. |
_________________
"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar." |
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Emphasy
Joined: Jun 14, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:22 |
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I dont think so, Buur... i think they made them as they draw the Priminister as gay and in womens clothes sometimes... nothing more than that... or drawing our queen in an orgie with some other famous danish women... its all good, no bad feelings there - thats how we go around in Denmark, irony, sarcasm and making a lot of fun which can be thought of as being to harsh to others, but thats the tone in Denmark! |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:22 |
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we have 2 eyes, two ears and one mouth, and its best if they are used in that ratio 
I respect views that atheists, muslims and jews have, in a roundabout way, atheists also have great faith (to believe without doubt that there is no God, and everything came about randomly and when you die its finished, or is that agnostic? I get them confused sometimes  ) but thats their viewpoint and I respect that, not going to poke fun at them, hopefully Id expect the same from them about my faith!
The reaction may have been extreme, but the Danes did show disrespect to the muslims, who do thake their faith very seriously, sometimes humour doesnt cross the cultural barriers very easily.
Hopefully I dont come across as I think Im better than anyone else, 100% far from the truth. Respect works both ways, if it isnt given, how can you expect it back in return? |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:29 |
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There are limits to freedom of speech. For example: you can say "the holocaust is a lie" in the United states, and the freedom of speech protects you from beeing held responsible. You say the same thing in Germany, and you go to jail (and rightfully so). You say that in Iran, people start to cheer... As far as the cartoons go i cannot see the insult. There is no insult. It is obviously critizism, but i cannot see the insult to islam. I can however clearly see how the people who murder in the name of islam are exposed. The "Stop (blowing yourselves up), we ran out of virgins!" is plain brilliant. It makes people think. It turns the lights on and reveals how ridicolous the whole idea is. Blow yourself up so you can fuck your way through heaven? Yeah, right.
Of course sucide bombers are NOT what islam is all about. And those cartoons do a good job in showing that imho, they alienate those Bastards from their own people - if you think the cartoons are disgusting, then, by all means you propably think blowing people up in the name of your religion is disgusting as well. This whole incident may become a verry important event to turn things into the right direction after the dust has settled. |
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Buur
Joined: Apr 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Feb 05, 2006 - 13:31 |
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| Quote: |
sarcasm and making a lot of fun which can be thought of as being to harsh to others, but thats the tone in Denmark!
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i know - but talking that way to people who dont get that tone, just makes you new enemys!
@mezir im not against freedom of speech... But the reality is that one should consider what the reaction of your statements is, and are they woth held up against what you gained by your comment!... in this case drawing mohammed.... and gaining the hate of all moslems in the world..... well thats just stupid!
-Buur |
_________________
For most people, reason is nothing but their own believes. |
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